cai with throttle body combos

[SmaxxSmith]

howdy everyone! done some looking around and found a lot of info on CAI systems here, but im new to these motors and current technology. i come from the world of hot rod v8s. totally different animal here. however, for a NA motor with speeds above 45 mph, wouldnt any NA benefit from a higher local air pressure and the ability to ingest it? example? hood scoop and big carbs. i didnt see much on throttle bodies. heres the set up i was thinking about. injen evolution (with all the bs that comes with ramair) and a "bigger" throttle body. would it run lean? anyone have pros and cons or info on throttle bodies? what about a little choice porting on the throttle body end of the intake? and on that note, i saw someone had said that intake spacers negate gains from E85 above 4000 rpm. is that correct? i, eventually, want E85 but need to stay "warranty compliant" for now. that rules out a tune also. a throttle body is pushin' it on the warranty thing, huh? any input would be most appreciated!

[BirdTRD]

Start by reading the 2 threads below, they will answer most of your questions regarding CAI and throttle bodies.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81493

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112082

[SmaxxSmith]

excellent! im on it! thank you.

[x808drifter]

Originally Posted by SmaxxSmith

Howdy everyone!
Done some looking around and found a lot of info on CAI systems here, but I'm new to these motors and current technology.
I come from the world of hot rod v8s. Totally different animal here.
However, for a NA motor with speeds above 45 mph, wouldn't any NA benefit from a higher local air pressure and the ability to ingest it? Example; hood scoop and big carbs.

I didn't see much on throttle bodies.
Here's the set up i was thinking about.
Injen evolution (with all the bs that comes with ramair) and a "bigger" throttle body.
Would it run lean?

Anyone have pros and cons or info on throttle bodies?
What about a little choice porting on the throttle body end of the intake?
And on that note, I saw someone had said that intake spacers negate gains from E85 above 4000 rpm. Is that correct?

I eventually want E85 but need to stay "warranty compliant" for now.
That rules out a tune also.
A throttle body is pushin' it on the warranty thing, huh?
Any input would be most appreciated!

FTFY to make it easier for others to read.

Everything is controlled by the ECU. If you can't retune the ecu don't even waste time on anything else.

Any change to the intake will change MAF scaling and that can do bad things if not fixed by adjusting the MAF scaling with a tune.

The big consensus is that the stock airbox is pretty much perfect as is.
Change the filter to a high flow and call it a day.
Some sort of RamAir system may help but gains would probably be negligible.

There is little to no restriction from the TB NA.

E85 undoable without a tune. Period.

[Lantanafrs2]

Only proven power gains will come from header/tune and e85 if available. After that it's forced induction. These things are pretty damn efficient. No significant gains without a reflash.

[SmaxxSmith]

ok, so if im reading all this right, it appears that there can be moderate torque increases if coupled with a tune to cure the lean problem at higher rpm? im assuming thats whats being said when they refer to the MAF settings needing to be adjusted. i understand that its only as good as its next worst bottle neck with air/fuel in to exhaust out. and im sure it would have a lesser effect on a FI motor. the whole point of FI, air pump. but im talking about making it easier for the pistons to pull it in. maybe im talking about insignificant power gains, i dont know these motors. i just find it hard to believe that headers and exhaust make modest power gains over stock, but reasonable gains(maybe less so than headers) couldn't be achieved by getting the air in there quicker...err...easier. just the term "suction tube" says it all, i would think. a clean, short, low resistance air flow from slightly above ambient air pressure should make the valves the next bottle neck. right? i know im not talking about big gains. just trying to get a feel for what this motor likes. i guess all of it is reliant on a tune to compensate for the lean (if thats what it is) condition. i guess a lean condition would prove that yer gittin' more air in though, wouldnt it?

[SmaxxSmith]

sorry, just catchin' up with your replies...ok, so it is a lean condition, thus the tune. i know about a tune for e85 and i have no intention of going that route until i have the whole e85 setup AND the tune. i guess im wondering if there is no proven gain from TB and ram-air because nobody has really tried it? i saw several people claim they were going to dyno some NAs with TBs but i think ive only seen one or two graphs and i dont know if those were pics from manufacture sites or somebody legitimately trying it for themselves. and what is the differance between the air pressure in the intake with a fan on a dyno and going...oh...say...85mph? is it significant? im just throwing these out there. i truly dont know. "MAF scaling with the tune"...hmm, gonna have to read up on tunes! once i have the ability to start dinking around with my tune, im gonna have great fun right up until i burn my valves or melt the tops of my pistons!

[Spuds]

The stock air intake is technically a ram air system. The radiators behind the grille resist airflow and build up a head of pressure in front of them. This turns the grille area into a high pressure zone. The stock intake pulls from this high pressure zone.

While a more direct ram air system will technically recover more dynamic pressure from the air, you will increase losses due to higher drag in the pipe/snorkel and turbulence. It all has to go through a filter anyway, which creates even more drag, so what you really want is high static pressure with low dynamic pressure (high pressure, low speed).

Bottom line, put a drop-in filter in the stock airbox and call it a day if all you are after is moderate gains while maintaining warranty.

[Kodename47]

1) OEM intake is efficient.
2) Throttle body is oversized, not a restriction.
3) Improving exhaust flow does gain some power, 93 pump fuel will be about 25BHP if you replace the whole lot.
4) Modern engine design and manufacturing technology is pretty good. 200ish BHP from 6.8k RPM is not at all bad.
5) Ram air tends to induce turbulence in the intake that may reduce flow. Also requires cutting of front bumper.

[nikitopo]

You won't find many people in this forum (if any) suggesting a bigger tb. I believe there exists a single NA dyno of the Grams tb with no gains, but this has a 72mm input and output diameter. They didn't follow the factory tapered entrance, hence it is a very pure design. I think the best product is the Toda tb, because it is a good design and at the same time it solves the high rpm issue on idle. You usually have this issue if you change to a bigger tb. About gains, there is a dyno from a partner that shows a gain of 2whp without a tune and a gain of 7whp with a tune that increases the rev limiter. So, it looks that it helps the air flow on very high rpm's. Of course, this is not an independent dyno and many are questioning the validity of the results. At least for Toda it looks that the gains were real and even more important better in comparison to a catless header. Just for the history, their bigger tb was available for sale back in 2012 and at the same period they had a prototype exhaust manifold. The exhaust manifold was never released for sale before 2016. Reason was that they waited to have ready the bigger capacity engine kit (2.3lt) and they suggested to use the manifold together with the kit. So from their point of view, the dimension and flow of the stock manifold was not that bad. We forget here the torque dip, since it doesn't really matter in racing. Apart of whatever gains, another advantage of a bigger tb is that it provides better throttle response and a more responsive engine. This is also very important in racing.