MeisterR coilovers for FR-S / BRZ, what do you use your suspension for?

[MeisterR]

Hello everyone,

My name is Jerrick and I am from MeisterR.
MeisterR is a suspension specialist from the UK, and we just recently expanded to the USA.
Some of you may have heard of us and other may not, but I intend to be part of the community so any questions regarding suspension, I am alway happy to help.

Our main offering is coilovers, and our newest generation is the ZetaCRD Coilovers.
Here are a few cars that have use our suspension in competitive event in the UK.



Coming from the UK, I am just trying to get a general feel what community want from their suspension.
MeisterR suspension are design as multi-role suspension that does everything well.

For the FR-S / BRZ, we have the ZetaCRD+ Coilovers.
Springs rate specification are Front 5kg/mm, Rear 4kg/mm.

Our ZetaCRD are design for fast road & track use, and so the springs rate are design around compliancy over uneven road surfaces, while retaining damper adjustments for track use.

However, most enthusiast seems to engage with SCCA Auto Solo that require a slightly different setup than most track suspension.
We want to know do track enthusiast want dedicated setup that that is even stiffer to handle quick transition such as Auto Solo event, but give up compliancy for road use in return.

Let us know what you think, we are just taking in opinion at the moment.
Looking forward to hear from everyone.

Jerrick

[mpross]

I'm sure there are some that would give up compliancy on the road for a dedicated track/solo setup, but I would bet that for a majority of people, compliancy on the road is more important. Most of us daily our car, so the improvement on a track is desired, but being tolerable on the road is a priority.

That's probably why the tein flex coilovers are so popular with members on here. There is a performance advantage, but they're still plenty comfortable for daily driving.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G928A using Tapatalk

[MeisterR]

Originally Posted by mpross

I'm sure there are some that would give up compliancy on the road for a dedicated track/solo setup, but I would bet that for a majority of people, compliancy on the road is more important. Most of us daily our car, so the improvement on a track is desired, but being tolerable on the road is a priority.

That's probably why the tein flex coilovers are so popular with members on here. There is a performance advantage, but they're still plenty comfortable for daily driving.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G928A using Tapatalk

That is pretty much in line to what we thought also.
Which is why we spec the ZetaCRD+ with longer damper stroke travel and a much more sensible springs rate.
No one want to suffer daily for marginal on track improvement, if any at all.

The FR-S / BRZ was a challenging chassis to work with as there weren't a lot of room for suspension travel.
We actually had to engineer a few new parts specially to get a package to work, and we are pretty happy with our latest design.

We use mono-tube damper to ensure performance, but the specification are engineered to it won't be bone shattering stiff.
That way we can achieve the damping response and consistency of a mono-tube damper, without losing the ride quality and compliancy expected from a good fast road suspension.

Jerrick

[mpross]

That sounds like a good package. I wish I would've known about the ZetaCRD+ a month ago. I installed new coilovers last month and they've been one headache after another the whole time :/

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[MeisterR]

Originally Posted by mpross

That sounds like a good package. I wish I would've known about the ZetaCRD+ a month ago. I installed new coilovers last month and they've been one headache after another the whole time :/

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There are always room for upgrade.

To be honest, even i can't promise everything will always be perfect.
We sure try our hardest to make sure everything is as perfect as we can get it from every angle.

But if something does goes wrong, we always do what we can to sort the customer out, that is a promise that we can keep.

Jerrick

[mpross]

Originally Posted by MeisterR

There are always room for upgrade.

To be honest, even i can't promise everything will always be perfect.
We sure try our hardest to make sure everything is as perfect as we can get it from every angle.

But if something does goes wrong, we always do what we can to sort the customer out, that is a promise that we can keep.

Jerrick

Well it's good to see a manufacturer standing behind their product and trying to help the customer (something that hasn't been great with my coilover's manufacturer).

I'm sure there a lot of people on here who would be interested in your products- good luck with the US market!

[cjd]

I do two things with my car, typically: AutoX and road-tripping; the latter really doesn't need the same spring rates I compete with (granted, I run rates on the high end of things...) Softer damper settings help but that's not everything. There's an outside chance I'll do some track days, but that won't happen till I'm willing to just walk away from the car if I mess up.

I'd love a setup I could swap spring rates on easily without having to worry about needing to realign. I'm sure it's a pipe dream, but... Quick in this scenario is similar to a wheel change, and would somehow have to present no alignment mess (I'd be OK with less camber but wouldn't want to re-align every time.)

It would also be interesting to see if there were an easy way to have a top hat that could take an insert to become solid and otherwise be a little softer... again would have to be a very quick change. Also unlikely (especially in the back)

Speaking of spring rates, I've never seen a competitive setup with a higher front rate; even rates seems popular for AutoX, and higher rear for the track. Maybe I've missed a setup, of course... 7-8k seems the starting point for performance (I have 10/12)

Generally it seems people want really affordable (Tein seems to be hitting this with their non-rebuildable approach) or solid performance, where there's often willingness to stretch the budget just a bit more to get a good setup (and of course, for some, that budget may stretch more.) I'm sure a lot of folks after performance wouldn't mind a really comfy (but not too soft) ride when not on the track but that seems either really expensive or not even possible - either one a reason we might not have seen it. On the affordable end, a lot of people still end up with pretty poor setups - probably looking for "2-3 inches of drop" or "need clearance for my 18x10 -40 wheels"

edit: I'm not entirely sure the setup I have is the best I can do, but will start experimenting with it more this year

C

[MeisterR]

Originally Posted by mpross

Well it's good to see a manufacturer standing behind their product and trying to help the customer (something that hasn't been great with my coilover's manufacturer).

I'm sure there a lot of people on here who would be interested in your products- good luck with the US market!

Thanks, if there are anything I can help let me know.
I don't mind helping if it is something i can do, but generally we have limited ability with other manufacturer's goods simply because we can only get limited information to work off of.

Originally Posted by cjd

I do two things with my car, typically: AutoX and road-tripping; the latter really doesn't need the same spring rates I compete with (granted, I run rates on the high end of things...) Softer damper settings help but that's not everything. There's an outside chance I'll do some track days, but that won't happen till I'm willing to just walk away from the car if I mess up.

I'd love a setup I could swap spring rates on easily without having to worry about needing to realign. I'm sure it's a pipe dream, but... Quick in this scenario is similar to a wheel change, and would somehow have to present no alignment mess (I'd be OK with less camber but wouldn't want to re-align every time.)

It would also be interesting to see if there were an easy way to have a top hat that could take an insert to become solid and otherwise be a little softer... again would have to be a very quick change. Also unlikely (especially in the back)

Speaking of spring rates, I've never seen a competitive setup with a higher front rate; even rates seems popular for AutoX, and higher rear for the track. Maybe I've missed a setup, of course... 7-8k seems the starting point for performance (I have 10/12)

Generally it seems people want really affordable (Tein seems to be hitting this with their non-rebuildable approach) or solid performance, where there's often willingness to stretch the budget just a bit more to get a good setup (and of course, for some, that budget may stretch more.) I'm sure a lot of folks after performance wouldn't mind a really comfy (but not too soft) ride when not on the track but that seems either really expensive or not even possible - either one a reason we might not have seen it. On the affordable end, a lot of people still end up with pretty poor setups - probably looking for "2-3 inches of drop" or "need clearance for my 18x10 -40 wheels"

edit: I'm not entirely sure the setup I have is the best I can do, but will start experimenting with it more this year

C

Right, let me chime in a bit of what can be done.
The 5/4 springs rate actually aren't pick out of thin air, we got a GT86 (FR-S / BRZ) and took all the measurement off the car.
Corner weight, suspension motion ratio, etc... that is how you work out the wheel frequency and vehicle dynamic.
For the sake of easy explanation, think of Wheel Frequency as the result of springs rate, corner weight, and suspension motion ratio; so this number is directly related to the springs rate.

Now, springs rate bias is an interesting lesson
The front and the rear wheel frequency have to have a gap, because if they are too close you will hit a suspension harmonic.
What this harmonic does is it allows the front and rear to work together creating a horrible vehicle dynamic, instead of the front and rear working against each other to slow each other down.
So suspension harmonic is something you want to avoid.

Generally speaking, the "drive wheel" will have the softer of the two frequency.
Because this allow the drive wheel to get traction, as well as the front having more resistant against dip during turn in and braking.
However, you could also flip the frequency and have it the other way around the long as it doesn't hit this "harmonic".
turning it the other way around will mean the rear don't want to squat as much to generate traction, and the rear will be more lively under power.

Both works, but generally we like to have the lower frequency on the drive wheel because it makes for a better drive when you can plan the power down and get the car moving forward instead of sideway.
It also makes for a safer car, as well as better lap time.

So that is the quick explanation of "why" we have the rear end softer on the FR-S / BRZ.
Also, 5/5 will not work, it will hit harmonic.

As for springs rate, I can do some calculation.
But 5kg/mm front is about as hard as i would like to have on a fast road & track car.
Anything more are really stepping toward to dedicated track car with slick tyres setup.

Higher springs rate don't necessary mean better track performance.
As it hugely depends on how much grip the tyres can actually generate.
Having the right springs rate, and good ratio of compression to rebound force is what get the tyres working to generate traction.

I hope that didn't get too technical, but any questions please feel free to let me know and I'll be happy to answer them.

Jerrick

[AJ124]

Jerrick, how do these compare on paper to your Zeta R coilovers?
Cheers AJ.

[Tor]

Let us know what you think, we are just taking in opinion at the moment.

I think it is highly dependable upon what the price range is.

From reading this forum for a long time, it seems the preference is following the below formulas:

Price > 2500$ => More than 6 kg/mm spring rate track setup, at least low speed compression and rebound adjustable dampers.
Price < 2500$ > 1500$ = Compromise 4 - 6 kg/mm spring rates, Usually with the higher being in the rear or equal rates. Usually combined rebound/compression adjustable.
Price < 1500$ = "Will this get me 1.5" lower?"

Which segment are you in/want to be in?

Thanks for the explanation on your choice of rates. I went with a 6 front / 5 rear setup from the second category, and was in doubt if it would kill some of the fun. So far I like it!

It does indeed seem like it's easier to put the power down (requires more mishandling to get the rear to slide). However, with more camber up front it seems to push less than stock (e.g. driving fast on an on-ramp I would feel stock setup push sometimes).

My personal theory (pieced together from info here) would be that a high front spring rate is more important than if the rear is higher or lower. What's important, is that the front is high enough to prevent the front McPherson suspension from compressing and subsequently lose camber. I am happy with 6kg/mm and stiffer swaybar it makes for minimal body roll.

Still my personal theory, and how I experience it... A lower rear springrate makes it require more effort to slide it at low speed (like deliberately around a hairpin). It doesn't push either (at least not with more camber up front). It just puts the power down and accelerate. When there is less traction (wet) the rear will still step out as before. Of course it can still slide dry as well, but it requires deliberate action to upset the balance.

[MeisterR]

Originally Posted by AJ124

Jerrick, how do these compare on paper to your Zeta R coilovers?
Cheers AJ.

It is basically a new updated version.
The Zeta-R wasn't bad by any mean, but the ZetaCRD is a new version that improve on points that we could improve.

On paper, specs are similar bar the springs rate.
Both are 32 stage damping adjustable, both are mono tube dampers.

The ZetaCRD+ for the FR-S / BRZ got a bit softer springs rate and longer damper travel.
Our new CRD damper valving, plus a few other mods such as the spring coil insulator and the new UK patent pending looking collars.

Either suspension are good, but the ZetaCRD+ are slightly better because we always strive for improvement.

Jerrick

[MeisterR]

Originally Posted by Tor

I think it is highly dependable upon what the price range is.

From reading this forum for a long time, it seems the preference is following the below formulas:

Price > 2500$ => More than 6 kg/mm spring rate track setup, at least low speed compression and rebound adjustable dampers.
Price < 2500$ > 1500$ = Compromise 4 - 6 kg/mm spring rates, Usually with the higher being in the rear or equal rates. Usually combined rebound/compression adjustable.
Price < 1500$ = "Will this get me 1.5" lower?"

Which segment are you in/want to be in?

Thanks for the explanation on your choice of rates. I went with a 6 front / 5 rear setup from the second category, and was in doubt if it would kill some of the fun. So far I like it!

It does indeed seem like it's easier to put the power down (requires more mishandling to get the rear to slide). However, with more camber up front it seems to push less than stock (e.g. driving fast on an on-ramp I would feel stock setup push sometimes).

My personal theory (pieced together from info here) would be that a high front spring rate is more important than if the rear is higher or lower. What's important, is that the front is high enough to prevent the front McPherson suspension from compressing and subsequently lose camber. I am happy with 6kg/mm and stiffer swaybar it makes for minimal body roll.

Still my personal theory, and how I experience it... A lower rear springrate makes it require more effort to slide it at low speed (like deliberately around a hairpin). It doesn't push either (at least not with more camber up front). It just puts the power down and accelerate. When there is less traction (wet) the rear will still step out as before. Of course it can still slide dry as well, but it requires deliberate action to upset the balance.

The ZetaCRD+ MSRP at $1250, we are doing an offer at $995 delivered.
More details here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104205

The good news is that it will lower the car at least 1.5", and the better news is that the car will still ride nice and perform well.

Your 6/5 springs rate isn't bad, we actually had a REALLY tough tim deciding on which one to go for.
The final candidate was either a 5/4 or a 6/5.

The 6/5 isn't bad, and the higher springs rate will help with the lack of damper travel in the suspension system that are limited by the chassis.
However, the wheel frequency was just "slightly" higher than than what we like to have on a fast road car set up.

The 5/4 is bang on perfect on the TOP end of what we like to see on a fast road car.
But it is still quite a bit lower than what the market are used to, and we will need to make a longer damper to ensure more travel, this will limit the max lowering range amount.

In the end, we took the 5/4 as the setting and designed a longer damper.
We decided that if people want to go REALLY low, there are plenty of choices on the market.
We want a good setup that can go low, but at the same time drive nice and will work well as an all rounder.
We actually made a few new parts specifically for the FR-S / BRZ ZetaCRD because it wasn't something that was widely available.
But we are really happy with the new setup, and I am sure many others will be also.

Jerrick

[cjd]

Originally Posted by MeisterR

Also, 5/5 will not work, it will hit harmonic.

I haven't done the math recently (and there's no guarantee I did it right, nor that I actually had accurate data-points for the math...) but I'm not sure this is right. I was under the impression that even rates f/r will net out to a higher rear frequency, ignoring swaybar.

[MeisterR]

Originally Posted by cjd

I haven't done the math recently (and there's no guarantee I did it right, nor that I actually had accurate data-points for the math...) but I'm not sure this is right. I was under the impression that even rates f/r will net out to a higher rear frequency, ignoring swaybar.

When we done the math with the car on the ramp, 5/5 is "close" enough to hit harmonic.
And you do want the rear to have a slightly lower frequency so it help the car to grip.

Sometime you can get dealer to take measurement, and work off of that.
But the FR-S was one of those car we targeted so we got one into our workshop to measure it ourself, just to be 100% sure.

Jerrick