07-26-2014, 09:06 PM | #43 |
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For goodness sake. Fuel cuts aren't a panacea, and they can destroy your engine in a flash. You have four cylinders going. While one is firing, another is fueling. Your boost spikes. The ECU cuts off fuel to all cylinders. The fueling cylinder gets the overfull load of air but only part of the fuel. It runs lean then detonates like a mofo. Cylinder temps and pressure spike. Your engine is toast. It's that simple. Fuel cuts won't save an engine every time, and they can add to the shit storm. This stuff is complicated, but it isn't that complicated. ECUTek isn't perfect on the logic. Maybe another solution is. I just hate to see another tuner burned. As far as I can tell, this behavior chased away Robispec and a few others. Our losses, not theirs.
I have no connection with JR or Prime other than a couple messages asking questions with JR. Save the flame storm for the Pokemon games.
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07-26-2014, 09:51 PM | #44 |
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1lean firing in one cylinder 1 time would never "toast" a motor... Takes a bit more than that... Not a lot but yes a bit more than 1 millisecond fuck up
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07-26-2014, 10:49 PM | #45 | |
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On factory turbocharged subaru platforms you have a fuel cut BOOST RESUME which is another huge safety. When fuel cut is activated, boost is not allowed to go back to a normal level until a lower level is achieved and a predetermined time limit is met. That saves the motor by preventing the ecu from resuming so quickly that it fires lean on the first cycle after the fuel cut. So yea.. It will happen on a 1 millisecond fuck up. I even incorporate extra fueling in over-boost situations, lowered timing and error corrections on the boost control... BUT the ecu still uses a fuel cut off, which causes a hot/lean condition and error corrections wont help when a mechanical over-boost is present. Will a car running 7psi and fuel cutting at 10psi blow up? Probably not, 10psi cutting at 12-13psi .. maybe.. maybe not.. The higher the boost the higher the risk of damage to the oem cast parts in an over-boost fuel cut situation. Jr PS: DP1 your gripe and VGI are not even close to the same. His was a case of lack of support, which I fully agree and blame myself for and agree with a refund. I was not there to support him as I should have. I wish him the best and wish I could take back my lack of response time and lack of support. 0 excuses on my part. he has every single right to say I did him wrong. YOU on the other hand, came in for "touchups", add ons to your maps like autoblip, extra maps etc and left me with nothing but positive responses. Your reasoning the day of going else were was "wanting to try something new" You send a reply saying how much better your car is at 11am then 3 hours later how I blew out your cat from my tune. At 11am your car was "PERFECT" 3hours of tuning later its my fault you have a "blown out cat" because a competing shop told you so. Oh and you lied about P&L saying that MY TUNE caused the cat to melt, would be a first since I have tuned every single one that P&L has installed in house without any issues. Like I said its hard to deal with people who are not honest. Oh and I did such a horrible job and tune so bad that you raved about how fast your automatic car was around the track etc.. So why are you entitled to a refund again?
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75whp@ 0 psi 200whp@ 5.3psi 600whp@ 32psi Last edited by JuniorAWD; 07-27-2014 at 02:31 AM. |
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07-26-2014, 10:55 PM | #46 |
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I believe you are smarter than the average guy, your MAF tool is awesome, why not have a go at tuning yourself?
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07-26-2014, 11:01 PM | #47 | |
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As for kingkai and dp1, I think you guys needs to be more accountable for your own actions. Watch all of the video. http://www.thatvideomagazine.com/new...nny-ten-racing
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07-26-2014, 11:36 PM | #48 | |
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besides, i'm too lazy. a proggie though i can write while sitting on my couch and watching tv. also, for the extra price of racerom i can have my car tuned. Last edited by vgi; 07-27-2014 at 12:11 AM. |
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07-27-2014, 12:52 AM | #49 | |
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So at 11:43 we get this email explaining that the car was on the dyno for TWO HOURS and that the difference is massive. Seems as the car is finished and he will be back in a few hours to drop off a noisy ACT clutch we were going to warranty for him that he decided he rather have Moto East replace rather than the shop who was going to warranty the defective unit out of courtesy. At 11:53 am....remember how there was the BIG DIFFERENCE with the car? How so if there was a supposed clogged cat? Maybe the car was perfect heading in but after TWO HOURS on the dyno at a competing shop with a competing tuner trying to get more power out of the car in order to hook this customer in, they find out the cat was clogged. Has anyone else here had a cat clog on their car? How could it possibly be perfect and make a HUGE difference? Doesnt make sense... Hours later....3:27 pm another email saying that Jr's tune was "shooting flames" at the cat causing it to melt. At the same time supposedly there are nuts on the header that are missing. Remember how everything was so perfect? How so now with a clogged cat and a massive exhaust leak from the header? What shop would tune a car for two hours with either of those symptoms? Again does not make sense. Finger is pointed of course at Prime Motoring. A tuner would be able to detect back pressure from the clogged cat causing an issue or anyone with decent enough of a hearing sense could detect a exhaust leak. Why would they be tuning for TWO HOURS on an exhaust leak? Again does not make sense. And at this point @dp1 was still planning on using us for other work and that is when i emailed him telling him we can no longer warranty any work regarding his header (was cut open and rewelded) clutch (did not have us go over our work and remove it, had another shop do it and then have us deal with ACT to TRY to warranty an aftermarket clutch that chatters but in perfect working order and recently tracked (good luck) and also the tune and anything related to the tune (motor) since it no longer is running our/junior's tune. Why should WE over another shop's work? I can still cover the suspension work that we did granted it hasnt been adjusted by someone else....im sure @dp1 will try to find fault in that after again posting how wonderful the car was performing on the track. Please everyone....there are two sides to every story. Please put yourselves in our position as shop owners and the responsibility we take with these cars. |
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07-27-2014, 01:23 AM | #50 |
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Prime Motoring and JR Tuned....NOT the best
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07-27-2014, 02:25 AM | #51 |
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Prime Motoring and JR Tuned....NOT the best
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07-27-2014, 02:53 AM | #52 | |
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Either way at least we have one thing we can agree on. Trust me when I tell you that you wouldnt have the option of having me tune the car. I wouldn't touch it after all the lies and bs.
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07-27-2014, 04:11 AM | #53 |
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Prime Motoring and JR Tuned....NOT the best
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07-27-2014, 09:27 PM | #54 |
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This is not how I like to be mentioned. Now that our name is all over this thread and both parties showing email screen caps, lets first clarify about what this little "hole in the wall in PA" did here.
First off, DP1 contacted us to get a clutch put in, and have a look at the car because he thinks it should be faster. He is having doubts given the number of time another shop has had it. At first we had no clue what shop it was, only later on after we agreed does that come out. We take the car in because it is an easy enough thing for us. The car gets here and he first wants to tune it on the old clutch since it was coming out. Ok. At this point we knew who did the tuning and have seen published dyno charts, so my words to him exactly were that "I don't know if we'll improve, but if we can't I won't charge you." Remember he came for a clutch job not a tune. We start driving. The car is rattling and the clutch is chattering. The car has a slight exhaust leak, drives as slow as stock. I'm puzzled. We hook up EcuTek to see if there's a mechanical issue. What do we find? Log is screwed up, won't report IAM (or shows 0), FKLC is way off, and it definitely runs like a turd. Screencap of the timing curve: What you see is that it is the timing is down to 7 degrees in the low range. I can't tell if it is tuned that way or if it is because the AFR was 15 in the low range. Whatever, at this point we tell him we can definitely improve the tune. Sure enough after about an hour of tweaking it, we get it much faster. But it took longer than expected so I began to wonder if we had other issues. Here's our final timing curve proprietary info be damned, a Rotrex setup does not need to be tuned like a turbo. No need to pull out 10-15 degrees out of the low end when it only makes 2-3 psi. The other aspect to this is that this USDM car somehow came in with a JDM (G) ROM. Not sure how that happened, some tuners know how to get around this and we had to do that to convert back to a USDM ROM. So then we got the car on the lift. Not to look for issues to bash another shop, but to do the clutch we were asked to do and confirmed a problem with. We did not offer any discounts whatsoever. But what did we find? RTV all over the exhaust. Head flange, vband in the header, vband in the exhaust, front pipe that had a warped flange...then my tech gets to pulling the header off, and there's only one nut on the passenger side head. A bit of an issue since they are a fine pitch PITA to find shoulder nut. But what do you know, as I look through my tech's cart I see them on the front pipe--they were holding together the front pipe bolts.... Then as we're working on the header, we hear a rattling. Shining the flashlight inside, we see a shrunken and melted cat. When that happens it isn't a defect. That happens because of an overly lean mixture and retarded timing. That doesn't take an expert to put it together when the datalog showed what it did. Metallic substrate cats MELT, not shatter like the OEM ceramics. No doubt track time accelerates the wear, but this rarely will happen after a dozen track days let alone just a few. As with any job, we tell our customers EXACTLY what we are doing, and why a job is taking longer than expected. Our floor plan is totally open and it is obvious to see what we are doing or cursing at. Here we had to give him a choice as to what to do with the header. He can run it as is, it flowed enough for probably 240 whp, or we can cut it out and reweld the pipe. It is a weekend, he's from 2 hours away, there's no waiting for a P&L warranty unit. So we did just that. Got it back together and drove it, thing picked up another 20hp. I told DP1 to go easy and keep us out of it, I'm not looking to pick a fight with another shop, nor do I know what may have gone on before hand. I have no control over what a customer does and how they handle their relations with a previous shop, but frankly the amount someone spent and how they were treated has absolutely everything to do with it. It didn't help that when tried calling and emailing before anything was public, he was being told some not so nice things. Those emails you're quoting I'm pretty sure he was acting content as he was trying to be NICE to you and just let you RMA the clutch and maybe refund the tune. Out of context and irrelevant at this point. We always try to explain to customers that sometimes there's folks we can't always control (i.e. techs, bad parts, sloppy fabricators). I understand being defensive when a customer is ticked, but it isn't cool to attack their credibility, say that another shop is out to get you while quoting their name in a post, reference the Vinny Ten video (someone else I know, but I remember his Supra from 15 years ago when I was racing my DSMs...), call someone's hard earned shop "some hole in the wall," or go after a customer's character. Again, this wasn't a case of "lets find shit wrong", but a case of explaining to the customer why we were doing what we were doing, and offering options for things like the cat. Not our first rodeo getting a customer that isn't thrilled, and you can bet we always offer a courtesy to the other shop and just fix the issue if it can be fixed. But it wouldn't be fair to throw P&L under the bus in this case either. |
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07-28-2014, 04:28 PM | #55 |
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Well said @moto-mike.
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07-28-2014, 04:41 PM | #56 |
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