2014 86CUP presented by Winmax, rules and schedule

[juliog]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Most BBK increase rotational intertia. Do we want to give them negative points for that performance detriment?

To play devil's advocate, some BBK kits for this platform also shave off a few pounds of unsprung weight per corner.. that's gotta be good right?

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by ImperiousRex

And we are finding that driver mod >>>> car mods right now.

Right? Someone in STOCK class is running almost 7 seconds faster than me in STREET class. I have way more mods and theoretically should be able to match/exceed his lap times.

This is just grouping similarly spec'd cars together. In the end, all that can be done is evidence provided.

Oh, @solidONE when I say evidence, I mean evidence in the form of controlled conditions and isolated situations. The two articles you referenced has glaring holes:

1) BBK vs.. stock pads? Even a "street" aftermarket pad will be way better than used OEM pads. Just because it's a Corvette doesn't mean it has good pads, there's plenty of bean counters at GM to ensure that.

2) sway bars modified, then springs/shocks? I'm willing to bet that if the parts were swapped, the lap time gain (or rather, shaved) would be reversed.

Again, if you feel strongly about the points system being off, we're all ears. I can speak from personal experience that adding sway bars to my car (with Ohlins) is NOT going to make my car faster. However, better tires or a wider contact patch will make an immediate difference.

-alex

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by juliog

To play devil's advocate, some BBK kits for this platform also shave off a few pounds of unsprung weight per corner.. that's gotta be good right?

less weight, but more inertia :p

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by mav1178

my car (with Ohlins)

I need to feel this car at BW

I hope you didn't feel too pressured in the canyon... we were going at a pretty good pace

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I need to feel this car at BW

I hope you didn't feel too pressured in the canyon... we were going at a pretty good pace

Sadly I won't be at the event this weekend

Would love to find that mystical gap between my lap times and those of a stock car driven by a superior driver.

And no, no pressure in the canyons. My car was way too full and too many things were moving/sliding around in the back.

-alex

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Sadly I won't be at the event this weekend

Would love to find that mystical gap between my lap times and those of a stock car driven by a superior driver.

And no, no pressure in the canyons. My car was way too full and too many things were moving/sliding around in the back.

-alex

Ted didn't realize it was you we caught... he felt bad :p

[solidONE]

Seriously guys... If I had the magic sway bar setup and it was giving me a decent advantage.... you guys would be the LAST to find out. I'm not going to prove it then just to have it taken away.... Especially if I spent my hard earned money on them. Emphasis 'hard earned' and 'money'.

I really like how my springs are set up, but I'll have to part and sell it because of the rules. I'm determined to begin from the bottom up. I'm also stuck with these 300TW tires I bought for the sole purpose to use them in 86 cup stock class. $600 bux down the drain.. Who's going to buy these tires from me? You? Will you want to trade me some 215 RS3 for them?

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Right? Someone in STOCK class is running almost 7 seconds faster than me in STREET class. I have way more mods and theoretically should be able to match/exceed his lap times.

This is just grouping similarly spec'd cars together. In the end, all that can be done is evidence provided.

Oh, @solidONE when I say evidence, I mean evidence in the form of controlled conditions and isolated situations. The two articles you referenced has glaring holes:

1) BBK vs.. stock pads? Even a "street" aftermarket pad will be way better than used OEM pads. Just because it's a Corvette doesn't mean it has good pads, there's plenty of bean counters at GM to ensure that.

2) sway bars modified, then springs/shocks? I'm willing to bet that if the parts were swapped, the lap time gain (or rather, shaved) would be reversed.

Again, if you feel strongly about the points system being off, we're all ears. I can speak from personal experience that adding sway bars to my car (with Ohlins) is NOT going to make my car faster. However, better tires or a wider contact patch will make an immediate difference.

-alex

Exactly! so the relative difference is likely similar. This car would have seen about the same improvement with the sways and no springs/damper vs springs damper with no sways. Making them relatively equal in terms of performance increase. Any mac strut suspension will benefit from increased roll stiffness. It is inherent in the design (lack of camber gain in roll).

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by ImperiousRex

If you'd like to continue your campaign for point changes for some of the parts, I would suggest that your participation would speak much louder than speculation. After all we're running a Time Trial series, not a Theoretical Time Trial series

Not everyone is a big baller like yourself. Budget is limited.

[ImperiousRex]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Seriously guys... If I had the magic sway bar setup and it was giving me a decent advantage.... you guys would be the LAST to find out. I'm not going to prove it then just to have it taken away.... Especially if I spent my hard earned money on them. Emphasis 'hard earned' and 'money'.

I really like how my springs are set up, but I'll have to part and sell it because of the rules. I'm determined to begin from the bottom up. I'm also stuck with these 300TW tires I bought for the sole purpose to use them in 86 cup stock class. $600 bux down the drain.. Who's going to buy these tires from me? You? Will you want to trade me some 215 RS3 for them?

If we had classed a part as free and you did awesome with it, why would we take it away? At most you'd get a pat on the back and be told "Nice job on that run!" Emphasis on 'on' and 'that'. Also @CSG Mike and @mav1178 we may need to clarify the ruling on magical parts.

I'm sorry that you spent money on parts before the rules came out and that you're super determined to fit into a class that you can't based on decisions you made on your own. Ideally we should've made the rule for stock class be that you have to be bone stock but I guess this is what we get for giving the class a .5pt wiggle room.

Originally Posted by solidONE

Not everyone is a big baller like yourself. Budget is limited.

Crap I didn't realize you become instant big baller status just for showing up for a track day running a car as is. I could've been bragging to everyone I know WAAAAY sooner

[solidONE]

LMAO! You are simply awesome, Ted. Emphasis 'simply'. Maybe because it may prove to be as much value as lowering springs. And if you guys decide to change the ruling on sways, where would that leave me then? More parts I cannot use.

I'm sure you know exactly why you are in the "big baller" category around here. Nice car, BTW.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Exactly! so the relative difference is likely similar. This car would have seen about the same improvement with the sways and no springs/damper vs springs damper with no sways. Making them relatively equal in terms of performance increase. Any mac strut suspension will benefit from increased roll stiffness. It is inherent in the design (lack of camber gain in roll).

I'm not going into the details, my only gripe with the Grassroots Motorsports article you linked is that the spring is not tested independently, by itself, versus a sway bar.

That's what I am interested in seeing... and it's not for my sake. It's for everyone else who will be impacted by rule changes, because it WILL make cars be reclassed.

Originally Posted by solidONE

Not everyone is a big baller like yourself. Budget is limited.

Originally Posted by solidONE

LMAO! You are simply awesome, Ted. Emphasis 'simply'. Maybe because it may prove to be as much value as lowering springs. And if you guys decide to change the ruling on sways, where would that leave me then? More parts I cannot use.

I'm sure you know exactly why you are in the "big baller" category around here. Nice car, BTW.

Well... I see it more like, Ted has his priorities in life, if he can work at a company for more than 10 years AND support his hobbies AND not have to compromise anything, he's doing something right.

I don't want to preach but when it comes to track events and modifying the car, most people don't know what it truly means to run a track event. If you want to run a track event, you have to live with the very real possibility of writing off the entire cost of the car. If you can't do that (or can't afford to do that), then something else is amiss.

I got a lot of parts for my car last year, thinking I was just going to go to the track occasionally. Turns out, if I had waited another 3 months I would have 1) found out that Ohlins would bump me up to Street Class, and 2) I would've saved $700 on my Ohlins due to a market adjustment in their pricing.

Am I sad I lost out on $700? Yes. Will I move on from this knowing things change? Yes.

I really suggest you do the same. Not discounting your "lost money" on parts, but that is the reality of modifications and rules for any type of competition, professional or amateur.

But your posts have brought up something we should look at adding: some type of "form" or mechanism to request a rules change. Something simple like:

Part:
Proposed point change/exclusion (50 words or less):
Supporting evidence:
Documents/links:

Originally Posted by ImperiousRex

Also @CSG Mike and @mav1178 we may need to clarify the ruling on magical parts.

Things to clarify:
- sway bar point change (if any)
- re-balance of spring/shock mods
- procedure/requirements for rule changes to be considered (see above)

-alex

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by mav1178

I'm not going into the details, my only gripe with the Grassroots Motorsports article you linked is that the spring is not tested independently, by itself, versus a sway bar.

That's what I am interested in seeing... and it's not for my sake. It's for everyone else who will be impacted by rule changes, because it WILL make cars be reclassed.





Well... I see it more like, Ted has his priorities in life, if he can work at a company for more than 10 years AND support his hobbies AND not have to compromise anything, he's doing something right.

I don't want to preach but when it comes to track events and modifying the car, most people don't know what it truly means to run a track event. If you want to run a track event, you have to live with the very real possibility of writing off the entire cost of the car. If you can't do that (or can't afford to do that), then something else is amiss.

I got a lot of parts for my car last year, thinking I was just going to go to the track occasionally. Turns out, if I had waited another 3 months I would have 1) found out that Ohlins would bump me up to Street Class, and 2) I would've saved $700 on my Ohlins due to a market adjustment in their pricing.

Am I sad I lost out on $700? Yes. Will I move on from this knowing things change? Yes.

I really suggest you do the same. Not discounting your "lost money" on parts, but that is the reality of modifications and rules for any type of competition, professional or amateur.

But your posts have brought up something we should look at adding: some type of "form" or mechanism to request a rules change. Something simple like:

Part:
Proposed point change/exclusion (50 words or less):
Supporting evidence:
Documents/links:



Things to clarify:
- sway bar point change (if any)
- re-balance of spring/shock mods
- procedure/requirements for rule changes to be considered (see above)

-alex

Now we're talking, Alex! I agree. Ted's done very well for himself and he deserves every little bit of that sweet ride that he's built for himself. I'm just saying not everyone is in the same position as he is financially. No negativity here and there is no need to be condescending.

As for points on sways and springs I think .25 pts. is fair for a set of springs and .125 for each sway bar modified or changed and no penalty for removal of sway bar. Or else no points added for both the springs or sways.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Now we're talking, Alex! I agree. Ted's done very well for himself and he deserves every little bit of that sweet ride that he's built for himself. I'm just saying not everyone is in the same position as he is financially. No negativity here and there is no need to be condescending.

As for points on sways and springs I think .25 pts. is fair for a set of springs and .125 for each sway bar modified or changed and no penalty for removal of sway bar. Or else no points added for both the springs or sways.

No one is being negative, but if rules change and a mod becomes "useless" then that's the inherent risk you take when you make mods to the car. Yes, those with a larger budget can afford to soak up losses, but it's all the same.

It's the same as if you ordered some custom wheels or painted the car or any other thing that takes time between payment, and "completion" of the item/service's function. Who knows, if the rules never changed but your car was totaled by a tornado in Los Angeles, will you sit there and complain about "lost" mods?

My point is, none of these rule changes are made to exclude anyone. If you feel you are left out but have justification for the old points system, let us know. But keep in mind several things:

- modifying sway bars + the impact of sway bar improvements w/ spring/coilover vs just sway bars by themselves
- supporting information (or just a really well thought out argument with proper premise and without fallacy/holes in your statement)
- Use my "submission form" for proposed rule changes:

86 Cup Rule Change Request

• Part:
• Proposed point change/exclusion (50 words or less):
• Supporting evidence:
• Documents/links:
• Submitted by:

Beyond that, keep in mind this is an informal competition meant to encourage owners to take their cars out to the track and have fun. None of us have any financial interest in this, and we are most certainly not paid nor compensated. I don't care what class I am in, I just want track times and reach personal goals laptime-wise. If I get a trophy or place at some point, that's just icing on the cake.

-alex