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Old 07-05-2016, 01:14 AM   #1
KE70
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Spun Rod Bearing #4

Seriously need some profeesional point of views/ comments:
2012 June registered GT86 Manual
Stock engine no mod
Mileage clocked 32,000 km
Engine produced rod knocking sound, oil pressure test ok, compression test ok for bank #1, #2 and #3 but #4 KO.
EngIne striped down, found rod bearing #4 spun and sealant half blocked at oil channel and oil passage as attachment below.
Could it be the culprit to fail the engine?
Thank you very much in advance for all your comments.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:37 AM   #2
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Hello @KE70 and welcome to our forum ......

Too bad your engine spun a bearing ......

I'm confused ...... you mention a spun rod bearing but your picture looks more like the end of a main bearing for the crankshaft ..... ??

Help me out here ...... what are we looking at..??

If that is a main bearing, that channel (in the picture at least) doesn't look blocked to me.


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Old 07-05-2016, 03:18 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by humfrz View Post
Hello @KE70 and welcome to our forum ......

Too bad your engine spun a bearing ......

I'm confused ...... you mention a spun rod bearing but your picture looks more like the end of a main bearing for the crankshaft ..... ??

Help me out here ...... what are we looking at..??

If that is a main bearing, that channel (in the picture at least) doesn't look blocked to me.


humfrz
Thank you for your reply and concrern.
Yes the pic I sent is the end of the main bearing which is nearest to bank #4.
My concern is would these sealant blockages cause oil starvation/ oil flow or cause oil pressure increase to fail the lubrication of the con rod bearing #4?
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Old 07-05-2016, 04:06 AM   #4
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Well, now let's see here.

First off, this is getting to the upper limits of my pay grade ....... as I came from the "splash lubrication" generation..... (not really).

As I understand how most pressure lubrication engines work is that oil is forced through the drilled pasageways in the engine block to the crankshaft. The main bearings have oil-feed holes which line up with the drilled holes in the crankshaft. This is the same case for the connecting-rod bearings and the drilled passageways in the connecting-rod.

So, if the oil flow is stopped or slowed at the passageway shown in your picture, then yes, the rod bearing closest to that main crankshaft bearing could get starved of oil and fail.

However, I wouldn't run off to tell anyone until someone else chimes in with an opinion.

If I have exceeded my paygrade here, I reckon ol @Ultramaroon (or others)will straighten me out.


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Old 07-05-2016, 05:37 AM   #5
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This is from another angle.
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Old 07-05-2016, 05:42 AM   #6
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Unhappy

My crank shaft...
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Old 07-05-2016, 07:23 AM   #7
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Rod bearings are fed oil from main bearings via holes in the main bearing journal and passages in the crankshaft.

#1 main feeds #1 rod.
#3 main feeds #2 & #3 rod.
#5 main feeds #4 rod.

The main you show does indeed feed the rod in question.

While the #5M/#4R is the last one in line, it is not the most susceptible to oil pressure loss. In the event of a loss of oil pressure, #2 or #3 RB wear and fail first, because of the split feed.

If #2 and #3 rod bearings look fine, oil pressure loss can be ruled out. In that case, you probably have a legitimate grievance, and the sealant is likely to blame.

There are only a few other possible causes of journal bearing failure. Most of them affect all the bearings equally. Considering you only have 1 damaged bearing, the remaining possible causes can be ruled out.
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Old 07-05-2016, 12:01 PM   #8
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I just saw this video and it mentions one possible way that the oil galleries can get clogged up- the sealant that's used in lieu of gaskets in this engine

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obPG5ywHyMU"]Subaru BRZ engine upgrade part 2 Toyota 86 Scion FRS - YouTube[/ame]
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Old 07-05-2016, 12:11 PM   #9
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Regardless of the cause, this is fully covered under the 60k drivetrain warranty, no?
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Old 07-05-2016, 01:30 PM   #10
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Regardless of the cause, this is fully covered under the 60k drivetrain warranty, no?
Given that the car is stock, yes.

If you pulled the engine apart yourself to diagnose, unfortunately no. There are several sealed fasteners on the engine which void the warranty if removed by anyone other than Toyota / Subaru. The sealant is pink and the warning is clearly printed.

On a related note, Toyota dealers (in the US) have been consistently denying warranty claims, claiming "abuse" or intentional mistreatment. Given that this failure has a pretty clear cause, I doubt there would be much trouble.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:15 PM   #11
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If I have exceeded my paygrade here, I reckon ol @Ultramaroon (or others)will straighten me out.


humfrz
Whenever @Spartarus chimes in, I shut up and listen. OP, really sorry to hear about the failure. Please keep us posted.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartarus View Post
Given that the car is stock, yes.

If you pulled the engine apart yourself to diagnose, unfortunately no. There are several sealed fasteners on the engine which void the warranty if removed by anyone other than Toyota / Subaru. The sealant is pink and the warning is clearly printed.

On a related note, Toyota dealers (in the US) have been consistently denying warranty claims, claiming "abuse" or intentional mistreatment. Given that this failure has a pretty clear cause, I doubt there would be much trouble.
While I agree that the dealers will give you crap if they find that someone other than the dealer's have messed with the engine, it is a violation of the MM act for them to try to enforce their "rule".

See this for just one explanation:

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/war...rs-are-illegal

"In addition, big manufacturers such as Sony, Microsoft, and Apple explicitly note or imply in their official agreements that their year-long manufacturer warranties—which entitle you to a replacement or repair if your device is defective—are void if consumers attempt to repair their gadgets or take them to a third party repair professional.

What almost no one knows is that these stickers and clauses are illegal under a federal law passed in 1975 called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

To be clear, federal law says you can open your electronics without voiding the warranty, regardless of what the language of that warranty says."
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Old 07-05-2016, 04:09 PM   #13
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Whenever @Spartarus chimes in, I shut up and listen. OP, really sorry to hear about the failure. Please keep us posted.
Yep, I hear that ......


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Old 07-05-2016, 04:17 PM   #14
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While I agree that the dealers will give you crap if they find that someone other than the dealer's have messed with the engine, it is a violation of the MM act for them to try to enforce their "rule".

NOT ALWAYS

See this for just one explanation:

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/war...rs-are-illegal

"In addition, big manufacturers such as Sony, Microsoft, and Apple explicitly note or imply in their official agreements that their year-long manufacturer warranties—which entitle you to a replacement or repair if your device is defective—are void if consumers attempt to repair their gadgets or take them to a third party repair professional.

What almost no one knows is that these stickers and clauses are illegal under a federal law passed in 1975 called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

To be clear, federal law says you can open your electronics without voiding the warranty, regardless of what the language of that warranty says."
That was possibly one of the most obscure federal laws until the "Right to repair" people started pushing it on electronics manufacturers.

Fact is, The stickers and seals are not slapped on in bold-faced violation of MM. The language on them may be deceptive, but there are very clever legal minds working for these companies, and breaking those stickers or seals can land you in a world of warranty-denied hurt. The fact that those stickers exist is a good thing for you, the consumer. More so if you understand your rights, but that argument is for another time.

Back on topic.

A warranty can have any number of provisions which render it void. As long as those conditions don't specifically violate MM, they can stand. Any of them The only condition to the manufacturer is such provisions must be stated in the warranty. It's up to you to prove they violate MM.

The provisions that protect you, the consumer, under MM are very narrow in scope.

The entire legal argument against those stickers is built on a single provision of the law: tie-in sales. The intention of this provision was to prevent companies from using warranties on goods as tie-in sales or service scams.

This means 3 big things for you, the consumer.
1. Toyota can't force you to use Toyota parts, and must continue to honor the warranty if you do.
2. Toyota can't force you to use Toyota service, and must continue to honor the warranty if you do.
3. If Toyota wants to deny a warranty claim for reasons 1 or 2, they must prove that the failure was caused by the "bad" parts, or improper repair, in question.


Line 3 is important, remember it.

I'm going to use a simpler analogy than a car to explain my point. In fact, I'll rip the example straight from the article. If you conduct your own repairs, or pay somebody to do it, and the device in question subsequently fails, your warranty may be void, or it may be intact.

Say you buy an aftermarket, 3rd party iPhone screen, and install it yourself. Your headphone port subsequently fails, and you take the phone in for warranty service. You AppleCare "Genius" (God I hate that self-aggrandizing superiority sh*t) sees the broken sticker. This instantly gives Apple a truckload of legal ammunition to use against you.

First, manufacturers (despite what Apple may try to tell you) don't employ geniuses in their service departments. Aftermarket bits, and the traces of 3rd party repair can be hard to spot, particularly on electronics. Now, if they had a sticker that tipped them off to the fact that you opened it, they could begin to mount the legal argument from above line "3" against you, starting by referring it to a rep who has some relevant knowledge or training.

The first thing he will accuse you of doing is failing to follow proper service provisions*, and thus causing an internal grounding issue in the phone. These devices are sealed, he will say, and small amounts of dust or finger grease on the chassis can cause grounding issues. He will be correct, and you will lose your warranty claim. The next thing he will do is bench test your Chinese replacement screen. Upon "discovering" that the backlight circuit does not meet Apple's maximum tolerance for electrical resistance, he will deny your warranty, and you will lose your warranty claim again. You will have to hire an attorney and file several discovery motions to even find out if he is lying to you

*which Apple does not publish, so be prepared to pay an attorney to build an argument about industry norms for repair.

All because of a sticker.

Say your engine fails. Toyota, in establishing a warranty agreement with you, has promised to provide you a running engine and functional drivetrain for 60 thousand miles. If you take the engine to them right then and there, you're good on the warranty. Say you had broken the seal 10,000 miles ago to swap rods. It's fine, your warranty is still intact, but you will have to know your rights and argue that. You will also have to be prepared to defend the quality of your repair. The burden of proof starts on them, until they find the first problem. Then it's a legal tennis match. If you start a repair, however, and don't finish it, don't expect to win any warranty battles ever. If you tear down the engine yourself after failure, and before notifying Toyota that you need service, you better have a damn good attorney.

The only point I missed is, if you win, you can recover the cost of your expensive attorney.
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