(GR86) Second Generation FR-S/BRZ insider info...

[Yoshoobaroo]

What hot hatch is over 250hp?
The Golf R / Focus RS / Type R are not hot hatches. They’re a step above a hot hatch

The GTI is, and probably always will be, the benchmark. The hot hatches that sell well and actually compete against our cars’ price bracket are the GTI, ST, and Si.

Edit: Damn it I forgot about the veloster. Again.

[R_E_L]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ahhh but you are talking about the reasonable public that live in the real world. I was referencing the many that complained when the power was par for the course.
Doubt you would see them make or sell any more at a higher HP than they do now (well did I guess). Yes it would open up one market but it would close another so in the end would be about the same.

No doubt there will always be the people that are all talk and at the end of the day buy used or stick with their 15 year old corolla. But even if we're talking about a regular buyer with little car knowledge who is looking for something cool or sporty, what do they ask?

"Wow, does it have a turbo/V6/V8?"

Just hearing the word turbo perks people up. I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of car manufacturers emphasize their sport trims and turbocharged engines even in their everyday commuter cars. Doesn't matter that they only make 170HP from a 1.5T, the word turbo gives an air of performance. And I'd say for a many buyers that's enough. Does it looks good? Does it give off a sporty vibe? Check. Check.

[86MLR]

Originally Posted by Opie

Bahahahahahahahahahahaha

You may want to look into what each company is worth. And how much of Subaru Toyota owns.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by R_E_L

No doubt there will always be the people that are all talk and at the end of the day buy used or stick with their 15 year old corolla. But even if we're talking about a regular buyer with little car knowledge who is looking for something cool or sporty, what do they ask?

"Wow, does it have a turbo/V6/V8?"

Just hearing the word turbo perks people up. I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of car manufacturers emphasize their sport trims and turbocharged engines even in their everyday commuter cars. Doesn't matter that they only make 170HP from a 1.5T, the word turbo gives an air of performance. And I'd say for a many buyers that's enough. Does it looks good? Does it give off a sporty vibe? Check. Check.

No I do not agree that the average buyer wants more power. The lower level Mustangs outsell the high ones in an order of thousands to one.
It is only the internet that worries about V8s or Turbos not the average buyer. I bet that 95% of the people out there couldn't tel you how many cylinders they have much less what the horse power is.

[dragoontwo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No I do not agree that the average buyer wants more power. The lower level Mustangs outsell the high ones in an order of thousands to one.
It is only the internet that worries about V8s or Turbos not the average buyer. I bet that 95% of the people out there couldn't tel you how many cylinders they have much less what the horse power is.

Or how the engine sits in the bay.

[R_E_L]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No I do not agree that the average buyer wants more power. The lower level Mustangs outsell the high ones in an order of thousands to one.
It is only the internet that worries about V8s or Turbos not the average buyer. I bet that 95% of the people out there couldn't tel you how many cylinders they have much less what the horse power is.

First, I do want to clarify I was referring to the average buyer looking for something cool or sporty. Not a mom that's looking to take her kids to karate. With regards to Mustang sales, that's probably in large part due to price. At least in my area, V8 mustangs approach 40K and there are plenty non-350 examples in the 50K region. I hear people talk about V8 pony cars in the low 30s but I certainly never saw any, otherwise I might have an SS with a license plate that said MURICA. (Edit: as an example, quick search of the most popular ford dealer in my area, cheapest new V8 selling for 33.7K after a ton of rebates, after TTL That's 38K. It's the only one at that price, everything else is 38K+ before TTL) The lower level Mustangs cost nearly 10K less. All things being equal most people looking at a sporty car will take the one with more power.

If you tell a regular joe who is otherwise struggling to decide between two similar sporty cars, that one has a turbo and the other doesn't, I'm willing to bet he takes the turbo one. People like more. Even when they don't need it.

[Opie]

Originally Posted by 86MLR

You may want to look into what each company is worth. And how much of Subaru Toyota owns.

Bahahahahahahahahaha, you mean the 19.2% of shares Toyota owns of Subaru Automotive, just below what is needed to have a controlling share? And Subaru Automotive is all they own shares in, they do not own any interest in the Subaru Corporation (Formally FHI, Fuji Heavy Industries.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

What hot hatch is over 250hp?
The Golf R / Focus RS / Type R are not hot hatches. They’re a step above a hot hatch

The GTI is, and probably always will be, the benchmark. The hot hatches that sell well and actually compete against our cars’ price bracket are the GTI, ST, and Si.

Edit: Damn it I forgot about the veloster. Again.

most importantly, those are all commuter car variants. the commuter cars literally pave the way for the 'fun' variant. so they can stuff a bunch of bonkers equipment in it because most of the car is produced at cost-slimming-quantities.

what people seem to keep not understanding is that the 86 is a semi-custom variant of a vehicle. it shares almost nothing with anything else. there is a cost to that...

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

What hot hatch is over 250hp?

Lots! Veloster/i30 N, Focus ST, Megane RS 280, 308 GTI. All are around the 260-280HP level, all available downunder. They are the ‘hot’ hatches to the ‘hyper’ hatches over 300HP (Civic Type R, Megane RS Trophy, Golf R (300HP in Europe), A45 AMG, RS3).

The Golf R / Focus RS / Type R are not hot hatches. They’re a step above a hot hatch

Sure, I consider them hyper hatches.

The GTI is, and probably always will be, the benchmark.

OK, well 240HP with PP is the standard now for the GTI... and the turbo torque makes it far quicker in the real world than our twins’ NA boxer.

Point being, 8 years ago 200HP was competitive with entry level hot hatches. 217HP (rumoured NA FA24 power) is not at all competitive vs the mainstream hot hatches which, aside from GTI, are all well over 250HP today and most are over 270HP.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by soundman98

most importantly, those are all commuter car variants. the commuter cars literally pave the way for the 'fun' variant. so they can stuff a bunch of bonkers equipment in it because most of the car is produced at cost-slimming-quantities.

I think most of us do understand this, in fact.

what people seem to keep not understanding is that the 86 is a semi-custom variant of a vehicle. it shares almost nothing with anything else. there is a cost to that...

Actually, it likely costs Toyobaru much more to take a stock engine off the shelf which is already a turbo (FA24T) and reengineer it to make it a higher revving NA engine. That is more work, not less! Extra development cost, not less! It will cost them more to reengineer the engine to make less power than it does in stock turbo form!

[86MLR]

Originally Posted by Opie

Bahahahahahahahahaha, you mean the 19.2% of shares Toyota owns of Subaru Automotive, just below what is needed to have a controlling share? And Subaru Automotive is all they own shares in, they do not own any interest in the Subaru Corporation (Formally FHI, Fuji Heavy Industries.

Yes, that 19.2% of Subaru Automotive.

Why did Toyota get that 19.2%?

And how that relates to Fuji Heavy Industries? About 10-15% I believe.....last time I looked anyway.

From my understanding Toyota are buying up and into all Japan based automotive and part manufacturers.

Basically swapping shares with "ALOT" of smaller companies.

Yes, even FHI > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Group

Some is due to sharing the costs on development and manufacturing, some is about owning a big chunk of their weaker competition.

I can see in ten years time Toyota going Godzilla and swallowing up some of those small fish.

Maybe it will be Toyota and not Taco Bell that takes over the world in 12 years after the franchise wars.....🤯

Maybe sooner if the small fish die of COVID-19.

Meh, but that's just my musings.

What are your thoughts on this?

Hopefully your answers contain more than Bwahahahahaha.

[chaoskaze]

Quick! Before this thread turns into politics i gotta summon the power of boobs.



https://9gag.com/gag/aP74Njq

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Sure, I consider them hyper hatches.

Nice, I like that term.

I forgot about the Renault, cause we don't get it, and we don't get the ford anymore either. I guess the Veloster N counts, but I haven't seen any on the roads. I guess that's why I keep forgetting about it. I run into a new GTI 5 times a week.

if only we got this beauty over here:

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Sure, I consider them hyper hatches.

Sounds to me more like the definition of "hot hatch" has changed and those lower powered ones are "luke warm"...

(and in the spirit of full disclosure, I have always hated the term "hot hatch", there has to be a better term than that)