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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 06-20-2023, 10:27 AM   #85
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I am very familiar with Pallotta, he was local here when I was starting out. I've seen him put seconds on national trophy winners many times. If you're fighting to be the top dog, then yes, there being a faster car rules you out, but what's new about that? In any form of racing for that matter. Not every class can be STS. Most people who are and have been fighting at the pointy end have had to jump cars/classes before.



This would be a very predictable move by the SCCA. Bury a new car for a couple of years, change it's class to where it probably belongs long term. They've done it time and time again. I was in here stating this a year+ ago. What is proposed here will still be a very popular class, and that's what they're most concerned about that. I really can't imagine the STAC hasn't considered that the proposal will upset many people, but it's also clear that many people want this/similar change. To have multiple cars +/- a second of each other, I view as successful classing. Certainly better than things currently stand in STR and STX, which are both one horse races.



So far, it's only been speculation that the 2nd gen will dominate, and no actual information showing that it will, and if it does, that it will ruin the class. It will certainly change the landscape, but again, not every class can be STS.

lol, what?

The second gen has a lower CoG, 25-50 pounds more overall weight (down low though) and 40+ more horsepower. How in the heck would it *not* be dominant?


I was ~5 tenths faster in my BRZ than Jon Caserta in his STX car on a 66 second course recently. I was 1.3 seconds faster than Jon at a different local on a 55 second course... He's also beaten me raw time wise, but never by more than a tenth or two and one was due to conditions and the other I just drove like crap.




FWIW my car is effectively full prep and while I've pulled back from national autocross this year, I'm still doing plenty of events and getting lots of seat time and development time. Competing with Jon and sharing data has certainly helped my development of the car on top of having owned a first gen in STX ages ago.


I ordered an OS Giken so I'd argue I'll be "full prep" in a week or two after Shaftworks works their magic on the diff setup. Doing seats will save a few pounds and make the car worse to live with so I don't see a point. The only other thing left is making the Karcepts rear bar work on a second gen BRZ and I've been talking to Brian about that too and we have plans.






The right answer is still, and always has been, to move the ND to its own class. but instead we have STAC members that are flaunting their "data" that shows a first gen twin is faster than a second gen twin.
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Old 06-20-2023, 11:12 AM   #86
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To have multiple cars +/- a second of each other, I view as successful classing. Certainly better than things currently stand in STR and STX, which are both one horse races..
If you're saying it's within a second faster, OK you're probably in agreement. Nobody thinks it's more than a second faster, if it was it would be competitive in STR.

I think the part that you're not seeing is being "within a second" is an enormous amount of time in autocross. If all you needed to do was be within a second, then we could put every ST class together into one big ST class, they're all within a second of STX. Go on a pax calculator and type in a 60 second course and see for yourself (only one this doesn't work for is SST but that's because SST pax is too hard).

My general educated guess is that the NC and new twin are maybe 3-5 tenths off of the ND2. And s2000 and ND1 are maybe 2-4 tenths off of the ND2. When they put the ND2 into STR, how many of those other cars that are all within half a second do you see in STR anymore? It will be the same here when the gen2 twin and NC are put into STX and they'll have the same 3-5 tenths time gap over the gen1 twin. Gen1 twin will only be run by locals who are not trying to be competitive nationally if it happens. And STX participation nationally will tank, at least for a little while.
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Old 06-20-2023, 02:48 PM   #87
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A one second deficit moves me from 2nd place last year to 10th. The jacket winner would be 9th.

Stop pretending that this is fine and totally ok. It's 100% not.

There's at least 10 people last year who were chasing a jacket, and another 15-20 who were chasing a trophy. Stop pretending that a sudden 1 second deficit doesn't change things for us; we are competitive people, competition is why we are here. You have to be totally lacking in empathy to believe this, or you're being intentionally disingenuous.

Can you tell me there are 30 people who will bring a gen 2 twin to nats in STX next year? Because if not, you're harming more people than you're helping. That's just not defensible, especially when the constraint that is preventing us from actually making everyone happy - create a new class - is entirely an arbitrary and artificial one.

So here's my question to gen 2 folks: are you going to fight alongside me so that everyone gets what they want? Or are you going to try and turn this into a zero sum game with a winner and a loser?
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Old 06-20-2023, 03:02 PM   #88
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This needs to be a concerted effort to make STM happen, I've been trying for well over a year but there just weren't enough letters being written.

Please go write a letter: www.sebscca.com
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Old 06-20-2023, 03:49 PM   #89
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A one second deficit moves me from 2nd place last year to 10th. The jacket winner would be 9th.
And that's assuming he means 1 second over the course of two big national style courses added up, i.e. 0.5 second per autocross day. 1 second per day would be far worse.
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Old 06-20-2023, 05:39 PM   #90
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A one second deficit moves me from 2nd place last year to 10th. The jacket winner would be 9th.

Stop pretending that this is fine and totally ok. It's 100% not.

There's at least 10 people last year who were chasing a jacket, and another 15-20 who were chasing a trophy. Stop pretending that a sudden 1 second deficit doesn't change things for us; we are competitive people, competition is why we are here. You have to be totally lacking in empathy to believe this, or you're being intentionally disingenuous.

Can you tell me there are 30 people who will bring a gen 2 twin to nats in STX next year? Because if not, you're harming more people than you're helping. That's just not defensible, especially when the constraint that is preventing us from actually making everyone happy - create a new class - is entirely an arbitrary and artificial one.

So here's my question to gen 2 folks: are you going to fight alongside me so that everyone gets what they want? Or are you going to try and turn this into a zero sum game with a winner and a loser?

What you seem to have missed in my other statements, here and other places on this forum is that I included STMiata in my letter to them, the exact letter they're referring to. They took my ask of having the Gen2, NC, and S2K in one class, and they put them in STX. I'm not sure what they others in that list that they referred to, but the STAC seem hesitant to create new classes, whether we find it to be arbitrary and artificial or not, it's how they seem to want to handle things. If we're working within their rules, and looking at what they've done in the past, this move is inevitable. But please do submit letters requesting STMiata, IMO it's the best tree to bark up for the short and long term health of ST. I'm not convinced they will do it, but the more people that argue it will only help the chances.



This was a very predictable move putting the Gen2 into STX. They did the exact same thing with the ND to the NC and S2K, but didn't give any time for people to switch. I would not be surprised to see 30+ 2nd gens and NC Miatas in STX at Nats next year. I know of 3 here local to me with cars already in STR, and have heard of a handful more with cars/parts in the waiting for this to happen. Again, that is just local to me here in NC. What is proposed here will absolutely be a popular class, and has the bones to be one for a while. Arguing that it shouldn't happen because the class is currently popular as a one horse race is a fleeting one. Arguing that we can all have our cake and eat it too (STMiata), is a much stronger argument.
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Old 06-22-2023, 06:58 PM   #91
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Man, it's a good thing I'm not fast enough for this to matter to me. This is all really complicated.
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Old 06-22-2023, 08:35 PM   #92
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Man, it's a good thing I'm not fast enough for this to matter to me. This is all really complicated.

It's pretty much "the new twin has 40 more hp than the first gen, it shouldn't be in the same class when there are other options"
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Old 06-23-2023, 10:19 AM   #93
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I recently was at an auto-x(non SCCA) with Tom O'Gorman, who has is 2nd gen car there. Which is just springs, control arm, and wheels/tires. Stock other than that. He had FTD by over a second, and was 3.9 seconds ahead of me on a low 40 second course. Second place was a very fast S2K(270whp k series) with a good driver that normally is FTD and he was still off pace. These Gen2 cars are no slouch.

Course definitely would favor car with more torque due, and my driving was not good he got more runs than I did as well. Course had to change due to a engine failure/oil and I missed my last run.
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Old 06-23-2023, 10:48 AM   #94
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I recently was at an auto-x(non SCCA) with Tom O'Gorman, who has is 2nd gen car there. Which is just springs, control arm, and wheels/tires. Stock other than that. He had FTD by over a second, and was 3.9 seconds ahead of me on a low 40 second course. Second place was a very fast S2K(270whp k series) with a good driver that normally is FTD and he was still off pace. These Gen2 cars are no slouch.

Course definitely would favor car with more torque due, and my driving was not good he got more runs than I did as well. Course had to change due to a engine failure/oil and I missed my last run.
Tom O'Gorman might be outside the norm in this conversation.
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Old 06-23-2023, 11:10 AM   #95
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I wouldn't put a lot of weight into local results. I've seen an HS Fiesta FTD at a site that no one fast wants to go to. Too many hard objects. When I was first starting out I watched Pallotta FTD by a second in a GS Civic on PS4S on a damp day. A fast driver will be up there regardless of what car they're in.
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Old 06-23-2023, 12:38 PM   #96
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Old 06-23-2023, 12:53 PM   #97
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Tom O'Gorman might be outside the norm in this conversation.
He still does auto-x and still attends nationals in various chassis! He was still FTD after we changed the course, and it was made faster.

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Old 06-23-2023, 01:22 PM   #98
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I wouldn't put a lot of weight into local results. I've seen an HS Fiesta FTD at a site that no one fast wants to go to. Too many hard objects. When I was first starting out I watched Pallotta FTD by a second in a GS Civic on PS4S on a damp day. A fast driver will be up there regardless of what car they're in.

Greatly depends on where the locals are and what the competition is like, for sure.
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