(GR86) Second Generation FR-S/BRZ insider info...

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Subaru revisionist history.

So, you're not even going back far enough in development. The cancellation of the FTHS concept (which was going to be the original New Supra) in 2008 because of the economy crash is what lead Toyota to decide that all new sports cars would be co-developed vs in house.

If I remember correctly, the test mule you showed actually first started showing up in the 2010 time frame bc the rumors the two companies would be working together started in 2009. That test mule was created at the behest of Toyota, Subaru did not have that planned or ready to go whatsoever. They didn't even want to make it but once the engineering team did (and we're having so much fun driving it and testing) everyone got on board quickly. Now the car itself was certainly heavily designed by Subaru from there, even though it was Toyota, as mentioned previously, that reworked the boxer with Yamaha, the transmission and fuel system, etc.

There's nothing wrong with Subaru doing 99% of the work on the Gen II (and that will be even more interesting if it really will be Toyota only) but to think this cars development and planning was driven by Subaru is not correct.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Guys, I'm not saying Toyota didn't drive the planning once the project started. I know that they bankrolled the development, and I'm fully aware that Subaru is not in the financial position (now or then) to build the car on their own. Toyota contributed direction, parts (Tranny/diff/injection) and outsourcing (Yamaha), but Subaru did the engineering.

There's an account out there, from Masuda IIRC, that posits that they had a test chassis put together for Toyota to drive, and that that test chassis convinced Toyota to push for a sports car.

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

People could recall Subaru filling back in 2008 an application under Chaper 11 of the United States Bankruptcy Code. It was the same year where Toyota decided to nearly double the stakes in Subaru and agreed to work on a RWD sports car and other hybrid projects.

Yup, this is something people forget too, Toyota bought out GM's shares in Fuji/Subaru as well.

You do have to credit Subaru for taking the whole thing as a great learning experience, they took this products development and rolled the quality into their whole lineup.

[beltax90]

oh yeah well subarus wiki history started in 1915 while toyotas wiki history started in 1924 so HA!

turbos, who developed it, next you guys are gonna fight about whether they should keep the crickets or switch to cicadas

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Guys, I'm not saying Toyota didn't drive the planning once the project started, and that they bankrolled the development, and I'm fully aware that Subaru is not in the financial position (now or then) to build the car on their own. Toyota contributed direction, parts (Tranny/diff/injection) and outsourcing (Yamaha), but Subaru did the engineering.

There's an account out there, from Masuda IIRC, that posits that they had a test chassis put together for Toyota to drive, and that that test chassis convinced Toyota to push for a sports car.

I think we're saying the same thing now lol...my point is that test mule doesn't get made without Toyota telling them to do so. The sports car requirement came from Toyota, not subaru, that's why Tada-san gets credit for this project and not subaru employee xyz.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

@ichitaka05 You care to comment on this?

Originally Posted by Vides990

I think we're saying the same thing now lol...my point is that test mule doesn't get made without Toyota telling them to do so. The sports car requirement came from Toyota, not subaru, that's why Tada-san gets credit for this project and not subaru employee xyz.

Ah. This chassis was probably commissioned by Toyota and built by Subaru to aid Tada's argument for a sports car over an SUV. That's a scenario where both Toyota and Subaru's story can exist and the quotes can largely be considered accurate, with some bias from employees to their own company. The quote I read didn't specify who commissioned the prototype, only that Subaru designed and built it, and that it cemented the path fwd for a sports car over an SUV. They probably left out those details to make it seem Subaru did everything.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Ah. This chassis was probably commissioned by Toyota and built by Subaru to aid Tada's argument for a sports car over an SUV. That's a scenario where both Toyota and Subaru's story can exist and the quotes can largely be considered accurate, with some bias from employees to their own company. The quote I read didn't specify who commissioned the prototype, only that Subaru designed and built it, and that it cemented the path fwd for a sports car over an SUV. They probably left out those details to make it seem Subaru did everything.

That is the scenario presented in the Toyota history.
The first proof of concept chassis was a modified Legacy one. It wasn't even remotely like the final version of course.


Marketing materials yes but more reliable than clickbaits quoting people.
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5274

[JesseG]

And to be fair to Subaru, they couldn’t really say exactly how much of the project they were responsible for. Doing so would be like biting the hand that feeds you. Tada-san obviously was a major influence on the direction of the car. Toyota funded most of it sure, but the engineering done by Subaru is just as valuable.
The ONE thing I wish they had not compromised so much on is the motor. I think it should have been:

A) Toyota derived high revving 4 cylinder (maybe with some assistance from Yamaha, they can work magic)

Or even easier
B) TURBOCHARGED Subaru boxer 4

I know the decision came down to dollars (or Yen). I actually like the FA20, but it was clearly a cost cutting decision.


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[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Looks to me like both want to take credit since it was a success. If it had been a horrible failure each would say the other was responsible.
Someplace between the Subaru claims (which I have never heard before) and the Toyota development story (which I know very well) is the probable truth of who did what and when.


There is far more "normal" Toyota in the car than many think.


https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71898

That’s a good point, if the car had been a failure there would have been a lot of finger pointing.


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[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

And to be fair to Subaru, they couldn’t really say exactly how much of the project they were responsible for. Doing so would be like biting the hand that feeds you. Tada-san obviously was a major influence on the direction of the car. Toyota funded most of it sure, but the engineering done by Subaru is just as valuable.
The ONE thing I wish they had not compromised so much on is the motor. I think it should have been:

A) Toyota derived high revving 4 cylinder (maybe with some assistance from Yamaha, they can work magic)

Or even easier
B) TURBOCHARGED Subaru boxer 4

I know the decision came down to dollars (or Yen). I actually like the FA20, but it was clearly a cost cutting decision.


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It was not a cost cutting thing. They asked what the market wanted and were told NA.
If Toyota was going to use one of their engines they would not have gone to Subaru in the first place and the car as it is would not exist. What they came up with may have been better or could have been much worse.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

It was not a cost cutting thing. They asked what the market wanted and were told NA.
If Toyota was going to use one of their engines they would not have gone to Subaru in the first place and the car as it is would not exist. What they came up with may have been better or could have been much worse.

Totally agree. And it's not like they just used a motor Subaru had laying around either. The FA is pretty much a clean sheet design and shares very little with the EJ, and it was used as a base for the later FA motors.

Originally Posted by JesseG

- Toyota derived high revving 4 cylinder (maybe with some assistance from Yamaha, they can work magic)

Yamaha DID help out with the FA20. People keep forgetting this is the first 100HP/L NA 4 cyl in a long time, and that's a pretty great achievement in 2012's regulatory climate. We cannot compare this motor to the 2ZZ motor or the KA, it's much newer and held to stricter regulations.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Totally agree. And it's not like they just used a motor Subaru had laying around either. The FA is pretty much a clean sheet design and shares very little with the EJ, and it was used as a base for the later FA motors.




Yamaha DID help out with the FA20. People keep forgetting this is the first 100HP/L NA 4 cyl in a long time, and that's a pretty great achievement in 2012's regulatory climate. We cannot compare this motor to the 2ZZ motor or the KA, it's much newer and held to stricter regulations.

What did Yamaha do with the FA20? I have not seen nor read anything that stated they were involved in anyway with the FA20.

I know Yamaha had a hand in the 2UR-GSE, the 2ZZ-GE, the 1LR-GUE, and some other motors but the FA20 i dont recall was on that list.

[mazeroni]

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...-brz-spy-shots

New, more clear shots.

Also here: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141898

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

@ichitaka05 You care to comment on this?

Um... some of it. Due to some stuff is political end of stuff, so can’t go indepth, but I’ll comment much as I can.

First of all 86 development started back in ‘06 for Toyota. Not sure Subaru had project called AS1 going back then. When they start developing together, both side had their ideas (can’t say indepth)... but in the end, Tada-san’s idea went through. Why? Cuz he’s the CE & Toyota had the funds. Sound mean? That’s the truth.

The black mule Frankenstein Subie everyone saw (I’ll attach it) is a test car that Tada-san & the team made to convince upstairs (both side) to get a green light for 86 project further. They (Subaru) didn’t make that car before joining the 86 team, AFTER they joined, they made the car. iirc that Impreza was hacked about 9”~10” shorter & had EJ20 (NA) in there. Idk which trans they used, but it’s 100% RWD. Btw if anyone didn’t know, there were Frankenstein #2 (I’ll attach as well).

As for the styling. I’ll admit, Toyota is taking more credit... but imo they deserve it. Design team (both Subie & Toyo) were joined together to make the design. That’s why you see a lot of design concept coming from 2000GT. They worked at Toyota studio which have 2000GT displayed in front of the studio and staff see it everyday. Result is whole new chassis was required, so both agreed to axe the using Impreza or Legacy chassis. Corolla was out of question, cuz it was going to be developed at Subaru.

As for engine. Subaru was just thinking of putting FB engine and call it good... but Tada-san had a goal to make 100PS/Liter engine. Both engineers tried and couldn’t hit the goal, so Tada-san requested (sorry forgot his name, but one of the engineer who helped develop LFA engine) to see if his team can develop FB engine that can rev all the way up to redline smoothly & goal of 100PS/Liter. He developed engine that hit 100PS/Liter. Problem was, building the engine. Engineer claim assembling the engine will be hard and even assembled it, might not able to hit 100PS/Liter. Subaru engineer saw how it was assemble and they were able to assembled AND even hit 100ps/liter goal even from first engine... but problem was endurance. Due to quality control, assembling tools, glue & etc weren’t great, so Toyota brought their knowledge to help with the endurance area.

Development went further cost of the car became big factor. They’re developing a lot of new parts. New chassis, new engine, even all new interior. They had to cut the cost down somewhere. They had to keep it cost lower to make it available for younger audience &/or sport car fans. This is why they’re using Impreza suspension & brakes. They’re not the greatest quality, but they’re proven to be good (VLN 24Hrs 3yrs class champion).

Basic testing was done by Toyota and fixing & adjusting was done at Subaru. Cuz Toyota the have money & area to test, but in the end, Subaru the ones that manufacture the product. So Toyota test it, bring the result to the 86 Project HQ to find what worked, what didn’t, whatever they adjusted send that info the Subaru to manufacture and ship it out to get it tested. It went on & on til close to final production stage. From there, both had their own test drivers to adjust the suspension and other things to make it their style of car.

As for AT, that’s a false. At least in my knowledge, Subaru didn’t go against the idea of having both MT & AT. What Subaru was against was having 6-axis device installed into their car. Not sure anyone remember, Toyota collab with Polyphony (Gran Turismo) to able to record yourself driving at the track and able to see it on Gran Turismo. When you buy & connect the black box, it have the data transferred into the black box. 6-axis device were installed into the all the early model 86/FRS. BRZ have em, but they’re disabled and even you buy the kit (sold in Japan), not able to use it, cuz Subaru was adamant not having it.

So in the end, 86 Project a 50/50 project or one sided? That’s all depends on where and how you look at it. If the funding is a key factor then Subaru weren’t anywhere to be seen. If the manufacturing is a key factor then Toyota weren’t anywhere to be seen. Toyota started the project and Subaru help bring it.

I’ve asked & listened from BOTH side and not only major engineers, but whoever helped developed this car. Some of em have a beef with other company. Some of em enjoyed working with other company. Do I care who developed or made this car? No, not really. Not only Tada-san, but BOTH Toyota & Subaru had a passionate engineers worked to make this car. Hell, tomorrow news comes out stating “FIAT actually made 86/BRZ!” I wouldn’t care. I would clap my hands & hats off to Fiat for a sec and keep driving my car while smiling.

Now, take this info as a grain of salt.