Why did I wait so long to try the pedal dance

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Wilwood/RR Racing kit?

I know that @rice_classic did a bunch of testing on different pad compounds to get his car to brake the way he wanted so I don't think that is 100% it. I am running the ST40 328mm kit which is pretty close to stock bias but am running more rear pad mostly due to my rear aero bias.

Nah, an oversized Stoptech kit

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

I do run a RR racing front and rear kit. so far no complaints with carbotech xp12s and 8s in the rear. I know I am still front bias but... idk works me. not far off times of the pretty fast twins at tracks I am used to. and it's more me as a driver vs the car

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

Not all the kits have messed up bias, just some of them. Some of them you run the F&R kit and it's close to stock. I am a wilwood dealer and can get the BBK at cost but elected not to as I didn't want to do both F&R.

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Nah, an oversized Stoptech kit

355 I am assuming then? The 328/ST40 kit is within +/-1% of stock depending on what bias calculator or source you use.

[jcaserta]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Not all the kits have messed up bias, just some of them. Some of them you run the F&R kit and it's close to stock. I am a wilwood dealer and can get the BBK at cost but elected not to as I didn't want to do both F&R.



355 I am assuming then? The 328/ST40 kit is within +/-1% of stock depending on what bias calculator or source you use.

Since you seem really knowledgeable about this, do you know if Essex AP Sprint is also within noise of stock?

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by jcaserta

Since you seem really knowledgeable about this, do you know if Essex AP Sprint is also within noise of stock?

I'm only regurgitating the info I have gleaned from here and other sources, the ST and Wilwood kits I did do more research on.

Yes, the sprint kit is close to stock. It actually has a slight rearward bias from the stock numbers.

[GrandSport]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

People are funny. What's scary about driving a car built before ABS was a thing? Oooooo!...

Flat spots in my tires.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

Flat spots in my tires.

THIS.

I raced a non-ABS car for 15 years before the FRS. When your tires are $350+ each, getting a braking moment wrong and writing off $700+ worth of rubber sucks.

Generally if you're leaning on your ABS, you're not fast anyway. ABS is great for extending my tire budget when I do get it wrong, it also means that upon getting it wrong with someone right in front of me, I don't hit them as hard.

Big fan of ABS in club racing. Doesn't negatively impact the experience and reduces cost on metal and tire replacement.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Wilwood/RR Racing kit?

I know that @rice_classic did a bunch of testing on different pad compounds to get his car to brake the way he wanted so I don't think that is 100% it. I am running the ST40 328mm kit which is pretty close to stock bias but am running more rear pad mostly due to my rear aero bias.

Keep in mind, I have neither street tires nor big brake kit. I have Hoosier A7 or R7s and stock calipers/rotors.

Addressing the PD
Humans have the propensity to make things bigger than they are, then divide into camps or tribes and then create a dogma around these ideologies that reinforce their thinking or previously invested mental energy... Let's not do this with Pedal Dance.

I think my tire choice and the racing I do predominately affects my experience with PD. If you're on Street Tires doing autox (or something just different than me) and running with Long Press yields the better results - DO THAT.

But don't stop looking at data, don't stop challenging beliefs in an effort to go faster. In fact, I would recommend not having "beliefs" to start with. Measure, test, measure, test...

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

Flat spots in my tires.

Originally Posted by rice_classic

THIS.

I raced a non-ABS car for 15 years before the FRS. When your tires are $350+ each, getting a braking moment wrong and writing off $700+ worth of rubber sucks.

Of course. My point was in OP's context. Still nothing to fear. Also, PD does not disable ABS.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Keep in mind, I have neither street tires nor big brake kit. I have Hoosier A7 or R7s and stock calipers/rotors.

Addressing the PD
Humans have the propensity to make things bigger than they are, then divide into camps or tribes and then create a dogma around these ideologies that reinforce their thinking or previously invested mental energy... Let's not do this with Pedal Dance.

I think my tire choice and the racing I do predominately affects my experience with PD. If you're on Street Tires doing autox (or something just different than me) and running with Long Press yields the better results - DO THAT.

But don't stop looking at data, don't stop challenging beliefs in an effort to go faster. In fact, I would recommend not having "beliefs" to start with. Measure, test, measure, test...

Before this thread I thought PD was the only way to go but this has been really interesting to read. I know all the guys I know that autoX and track prefer not to use it which I always found interesting as I have trouble without it. Could be my driving and what I prefer, I just notice it is easier to get the car to do what I want with PD. I do notice some negatives, like braking on uneven pavement the car tends to wiggle around a bit more. Which based on what stratcaster61 was saying makes sense if disabling EBD makes it single channel and you are close to ABS activating, or into it. I'm not really advocating either way now and have a list of things I want to try with/without PD when I get my car track worthy again. I just wish I had a way to log brake pressure PID with my setup. It seems to me corners that require longer trail in seem to possibly benefit more from it It's been a good discussion so far.

[86league]

What do you log in AIM to see individual wheel brake pressures and evaluate if the ABS is single or multi-channel?

Originally Posted by rice_classic

<snip> The case being made about PD mode is that if 1 wheels needs abs, the system applies ABS to all of them ALSO isn't backed up by my AIM data or the functionality of the car either. In fact, with EBD turned off, my data shows that ABS is still individual wheel based but more likely to become involved because brake pressure distribution isn't being utilized.

With PD (EBD off), my rear brakes (or brake, singular) can be in full abs without the other 2 or 3 being affected and my AIM data support this as do the markings on my rotors.
<snip>

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by 86league

What do you log in AIM to see individual wheel brake pressures and evaluate if the ABS is single or multi-channel?

I don’t believe you can get individual brake pressure on this car without creating a new sensor system. What you want to log is individual wheel speed and compare the 4 to see if a wheel, or multiple wheels are locking which you’d see as them slowing down significantly.

[RACECAR go brrr!]

Just jumping into the fray to make two points about pedal dance (and my experience in my 2015 BRZ):

1. While I haven't won at SOLO Nationals (which I blame partially on the fact that my car is not in any way set up to be properly competitive in STX), I do have several season jackets with Chicago Region, so I'm not a complete idiot behind the wheel. I've found absolutely no need to use the Pedal Dance at autocross.

2. My personal theory as to why so many people swear by the Pedal Dance (including a lot of people in the Toyobaru Facebook groups) is that - from what I've gathered over many years driving the car - if the E-DIFF engages, that flashes the stability light on the cluster. And while the E-DIFF is merely attempting to ensure your Torsen diff can do its job properly, and therefore is - if anything - HELPING you do your shenanigans, I think a LOT of people see that blinking light on the dash and get all pissed off thinking the car is stepping in and ruining their day. That's my theory based mainly on the fact that when I'm ice racing, that light will be endlessly flashing despite the fact that the car isn't cutting power, or trying to reel me in. I'll be properly sideways at 50 MPH on a frozen lake, and the light is just blinking away, and the only logical explanation I have is that given the low traction surface, the Torsen isn't able to do LSD things, and so that blinking light is just the car saying, "Hey, I'm adding a little bit of resistance to the rear end so your diff stays locked up."

And, like, I'm the guy who sells the switch panels that people most-often use in conjunction with the TracBox to easily enable the Pedal Dance, so it's not like it isn't in my best interest to go around shouting "YOU NEED PEDAL DANCE" to everyone... but I've spent SO much time defending the "3-second-hold" TCS OFF mode that the car came with from the factory it's ridiculous. That mode was fine when the car first came out, and everyone applauded how easy they had made it to "fully defeat" the driver aids. Then one day someone discovered the Pedal Dance and suddenly the other mode was "trash" and "useless" and "doesn't let you do anything." I realize there are some specific instances on track where apparently Pedal Dance does have benefits, but I'm tired of every person just trying to do some donuts in a parking lot, or trying to get the ass a bit loose on a back road, insisting that the Pedal Dance is the "ONLY WAY" to prevent the car from intervening. That's completely untrue for the vast majority of folks.

[ZDan]

Worth noting that for '17+ there is no E-diff with the long-hold on the TCS-Off button...
FWIW I only tried pedal dance a few times on my '17 PP, and back-to-back vs. "long-hold" at the track (no autoX) I really couldn't tell much if any difference, and for sure my lap times were not impacted either way. So I just stuck with "long-hold" as it's a whole lot easier and can be done on track during lapping if you forget before going out...

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by RACECAR go brrr!

if the E-DIFF engages, that flashes the stability light on the cluster.

I didn't know it did that, but I haven't been able to see my trac/stability light behind my gauge pod I run on my dash.