Why did I wait so long to try the pedal dance

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Ken, you're discrediting yourself, by literally ignoring the information and data at hand.

This discussion purely revolves around 1st gen pedal dance and its effects, and in following, a general recommendation for novice autocrossers.

Kudos to you on your win. However, it really doesn't bear any relevance to how the PD functions. You can win as many events as you want, and try to argue with m as much as you want, but it still will not change what the PD does.

Sure but telling everyone to run pedal dance isn't helpful and sitting here asking people.about their experience driving cars and then tearing into them when you think they're wrong is shit-tier level posting.


I had a first gen for years, I'm aware what PD does and does not do. It's "fine" on track but I'm not convinced it's any faster. I never had the blinking slip light on my first gen on track so maybe I was just going too slow.


Oh wait, I didn't lose to an STX car by 4 seconds

[RedReplicant]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Pedal Dancing eliminates a few features of the car.

1. EBD; the ABS goes into full single channel, rather than distributing to each wheel individually

By this you mean fixed brake balance, not single channel ABS (abs is activated off a single wheel), right?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by RedReplicant

By this you mean fixed brake balance, not single channel ABS (abs is activated off a single wheel), right?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, so I'll over-answer, I think.

With the pedal dance, if lockup is detected at any wheel, the system goes into ABS activation, rather than trying to optimize deceleration by re-distributing braking force to wheels that still have grip. Without the pedal dance, brake force is redistributed.

EBD can often disguise poor brake balance, because the computer is largely compensating for the poor brake balance. The issue is, EBD is reactive, not proactive, so there's always a loss while the compensation is being executed; there's a time delay for the reaction to happen.

Likewise, brake torque vectoring ala e-lsd, is always a subtractive force; you are fundamentally being slowed down.


Performance applications of EBD and E-LSD exist; that is not what the 86 has. The 86's versions are reactive safety systems, not proactive performance enhancing systems.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by RedReplicant

By this you mean fixed brake balance, not single channel ABS (abs is activated off a single wheel), right?

To actually answer your question it is actually single channel abs when disabling EBD, it will activate abs and reduce brake pressure at all wheels if the car senses one wheel locking up. I have felt this when testing on an autox course (you don’t have to believe me if you don’t want to believe that trail braking is possible on a flat surface with cones on it) where with the pedal dance if I go to left foot brake mid corner to tuck the car closer to the cones the brakes are useless because you’re limited by your lightest inside wheel. Try the same thing without the pedal dance and you can get meaningful braking done mid corner and get the course correction you desired.

Mike doesn’t autocross, I’m sure he’d be great if he put the effort in but it’s well worth noting the last three pages of pedanticism shouldn’t overrule your own constant testing and self improvement.

[dalte2]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Until Mike can prove otherwise, here are some results and video that demonstrate why I think he's wrong about trail braking for autocross.

Note, every single corner I braked, I trail braked.


Also, see the results here... 2021 ProSolo Champion.








If you want to clap back at me because I didn't share track videos I can go dig up some track videos of me in a ~180whp RX-8 with coilovers and tires running 2:10s at VIR.

But I don't know what I'm talking about and I get to be talked to condescendingly by a sponsor of the forum? I fail to see how that's acceptable behavior.

So, who to believe, the champion auto cross driver who posted this, my own times, all the champion drivers at my local Phoenix AX events, or CSG Mike...... What a difficult decision. The question, does trail braking reduce times even in a first gen? Well, it is a car, so, yes, it does.

Or, I could ask the fast guys in SSC first gens that best me each month. Or, maybe I can believe my eyes when I see their brake lights staying on into corners, darn, they must be trail braking those cars. If they only knew they would be faster if they gave up that silly trail braking habit they spent years learning. (Sarcasm)

This question has been debated and I believe the consensus of those with real world expertise on this subject have won the argument that trail braking works, even on first gen. Is it easy to perfect, no. But, that alone is not an argument against it's use by those looking to excel in that platform.

So, hopefully we are done with this debate.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

To actually answer your question it is actually single channel abs when disabling EBD, it will activate abs and reduce brake pressure at all wheels if the car senses one wheel locking up. I have felt this when testing on an autox course (you don’t have to believe me if you don’t want to believe that trail braking is possible on a flat surface with cones on it) where with the pedal dance if I go to left foot brake mid corner to tuck the car closer to the cones the brakes are useless because you’re limited by your lightest inside wheel. Try the same thing without the pedal dance and you can get meaningful braking done mid corner and get the course correction you desired.

Mike doesn’t autocross, I’m sure he’d be great if he put the effort in but it’s well worth noting the last three pages of pedanticism shouldn’t overrule your own constant testing and self improvement.

So this should be impossible right?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by dalte2

So, who to believe, the champion auto cross driver who posted this, my own times, all the champion drivers at my local Phoenix AX events, or CSG Mike...... What a difficult decision. The question, does trail braking reduce times even in a first gen? Well, it is a car, so, yes, it does.

Or, I could ask the fast guys in SCC first gens that best me each month. Or, maybe I can believe my eyes when I see their brake lights staying on into corners, darn, they must be trail braking those cars. If they only knew they would be faster if they gave up that silly trail braking habit they spent years learning. (Sarcasm)

This question has been debated and I believe the consensus of those with real world expertise on this subject have won the argument that trail braking works, even on first gen. Is it easy to perfect, no. But, that alone is not an argument against it's use by those looking to excel in that platform.

So, hopefully we are done with this debate.

Rather than just reading what is available here, I encourage you to dive a bit deeper into the data that is posted, as well as your own experiences, to draw your own conclusions.

Trail braking practice ideally is under a much more control set of circumstances, such as a skidpad by yourself, where you can repeat over and over to see the before/after and direct effect.

In these types of discussions, I prefer to stick to strictly the facts and evidence, rather than toot my own horn, but things get so muddied online where everyone is an expert.

Do what gets you the best results, but do try to keep an open mind; you never know when what you originally thought to be wrong, might be right.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

So this should be impossible right?

Congratulations, someone hit the brakes mid side, I’d ask your point but I don’t need to read another vague Socratic response tonight where you incorrectly assume my opinion.

[RedReplicant]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

To actually answer your question it is actually single channel abs when disabling EBD, it will activate abs and reduce brake pressure at all wheels if the car senses one wheel locking up. I have felt this when testing on an autox course (you don’t have to believe me if you don’t want to believe that trail braking is possible on a flat surface with cones on it) where with the pedal dance if I go to left foot brake mid corner to tuck the car closer to the cones the brakes are useless because you’re limited by your lightest inside wheel. Try the same thing without the pedal dance and you can get meaningful braking done mid corner and get the course correction you desired.

Mike doesn’t autocross, I’m sure he’d be great if he put the effort in but it’s well worth noting the last three pages of pedanticism shouldn’t overrule your own constant testing and self improvement.

Thank you, this answered what I was getting at. Interesting, I’ll do some testing of my own. A few things I’ve noticed about this car suddenly make more sense.

I really didn’t expect it to go single channel, I’d always assumed it only disabled EBD/ELSD. I have a 2020 ABS unit in the car but I’ve never actually driven it non pedal danced since it has had a hard wired Beastronix since I bought it a year and a half ago.

[Sapphireho]

I don't remember this thread, but my two cents.. Probably not relevant since you are talking the technology, but what the fuck.

My car was dyno tuned by the founder of Delicious. He said he changed the traction control so it came on later, and less aggressive. I never touch those buttons, or do peddle dance, and I can count on one hand how many times it has come on. I've had my car in an all most 90° slide in wet on hwy 9 in the Santa Cruz mountains and it hasn't come on. I have to drive like if I'm on a track with someone else's car till it comes on.

I can't believe I raced with a rear engine car without even a computer and lived!

[rice_classic]

I don't autox so I can't side with anyone in debate, but I am a pretty decent road racer. I would not be competitive at a local or national level in the road racing I do without PD. Full Stop. Maybe it's a Hoosier thing. EBD isn't just about ABS - it's about pressure distribution, even before ABS is involved, in fact it's more accurate to refer to EBD as a "pre-ABS system".

I have the exact opposite experience as posited by strat61caster. Without PD (just TC OFF), I pretty much cannot trail brake because of the way EBD is involved. The case being made about PD mode is that if 1 wheels needs abs, the system applies ABS to all of them ALSO isn't backed up by my AIM data or the functionality of the car either. In fact, with EBD turned off, my data shows that ABS is still individual wheel based but more likely to become involved because brake pressure distribution isn't being utilized.

With PD (EBD off), my rear brakes (or brake, singular) can be in full abs without the other 2 or 3 being affected and my AIM data support this as do the markings on my rotors.

Without PD my car refuses to trail brake at a level that is necessary for a competitive time and it isn't a difference that can be mitigated by "driving different".

My $.02

[strat61caster]

@rice_classic neat, I don’t have logging on my wheel speed sensors, I’ll have to try it again and see if my opinion changes.

fwiw I like pedal dancing on track, same tires, more deliberate inputs, car behaves better with pedal dance, doubt it’s the tires, my guess is the chaotic overlapping inputs and bumpy high grip surface makes it do the dumb things I feel.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I don't autox so I can't side with anyone in debate, but I am a pretty decent road racer. I would not be competitive at a local or national level in the road racing I do without PD. Full Stop. Maybe it's a Hoosier thing. EBD isn't just about ABS - it's about pressure distribution, even before ABS is involved, in fact it's more accurate to refer to EBD as a "pre-ABS system".

I have the exact opposite experience as posited by strat61caster. Without PD (just TC OFF), I pretty much cannot trail brake because of the way EBD is involved. The case being made about PD mode is that if 1 wheels needs abs, the system applies ABS to all of them ALSO isn't backed up by my AIM data or the functionality of the car either. In fact, with EBD turned off, my data shows that ABS is still individual wheel based but more likely to become involved because brake pressure distribution isn't being utilized.

With PD (EBD off), my rear brakes (or brake, singular) can be in full abs without the other 2 or 3 being affected and my AIM data support this as do the markings on my rotors.

Without PD my car refuses to trail brake at a level that is necessary for a competitive time and it isn't a difference that can be mitigated by "driving different".

My $.02

Fascinating that everyone has different experiences and as stratcaster said, the socratic responses are fucking stupid.




Do what works for you and your setup and stop insulting other people like you're some god given savant like some participants of this thread. (not you, rice)

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Fascinating that everyone has different experiences and as stratcaster said, the socratic responses are fucking stupid.




Do what works for you and your setup and stop insulting other people like you're some god given savant like some participants of this thread. (not you, rice)

5 Button Press Only.

Trailbraking here, 2019 ProSolo Finale (Feel free for anyone to lookup the results from this...it's top PAX time for the entire event)

5 Button Press Only

Trailbraking the entire track. Would like to tell me how this isn't trailbraking

Not sure why people think one or the other is better. Results above don't lie. Some would imply what I am able to do with EBD active is impossible