Car and Driver is F-ing Stupid

[KoolBRZ]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I strongly believe that that is exactly what the gas pedal does as well. (Unless I have been totally wrong about cars all these years).


Which is exactly the same as you said for the diesel just worded differently.

Then you've been wrong all these years. The pedal affects how much air is let into the engine. The amount of fuel is determined by how much air actually goes through the engine. Carburetors use comparative pressure venturi's and jets, while throttle body's with injection use airflow or air pressure sensors with oxygen sensors to determine the amount of fuel. They all relate to the throttle, but engine rpms, intake and exhaust efficiency, and valves all help determine the actual mass and velocity of the airflow.
Now unlike a cable throttle, a DBW system modulates the throttle plate for increased efficiency, which is determined, once again, by sensors, rpm, and airflow. How does it know how much to give? The gas pedal. It is telling the ECU how much power it wants from the engine. Push it down and the ECU opens the throttle plate a predetermined amount spelled out in a table, then the sensors, rpms, and airflow determine how much fuel to give it.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

They were selling the bare bones car in Germany. Do you know how many they were sold? Maybe 1 for every 50 full spec cars. Funny thing ... when I got mine, the dealer was thinking that the factory made a mistake and forgot to install a carpet in the trunk!






It looks that most people are not interested on such cars.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

And the few that are interested hang out on forums and scream that this is what everybody wants. I bet if offered here then they would sell at about the same rate as there, people would expect to buy them for $15K and be mad when they weren't.

Obviously, it wouldn't sell in huge numbers, but I'm willing to bet a lot of people who use this car primarily on the track would have chosen a stripper model.


The Evo RS was very similar, and it's still desirable even 10 years later.


Again, it would be nice just to have the choice. More options = better

[Da Brz]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

And the few that are interested hang out on forums and scream that this is what everybody wants. I bet if offered here then they would sell at about the same rate as there, people would expect to buy them for $15K and be mad when they weren't.

Of course, the flipside to this was the Boss 302 Laguna Seca and the 5th gen Z28.


They weren't cheap, but they were stripper track-only cars.


I didn't hear about any of them sitting on lots for long.


Just throwing that out there; I'm done arguing for the day.

[prj3ctm4yh3m]

Originally Posted by Da Brz

Of course, the flipside to this was the Boss 302 Laguna Seca and the 5th gen Z28.


They weren't cheap, but they were stripper track-only cars.


I didn't hear about any of them sitting on lots for long.


Just throwing that out there; I'm done arguing for the day.

if i read you right, Z28 demand is/was well under supply....

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

My objection is to those that say they can't keep up with traffic or the car needs more just to be a daily driver. I also have issues with those that attribute stupidity or laziness on the designers part for not giving them what they think the car needs or that they just think they have outsmarted the thousands of people involved in the design of the car. They simply have no concept of how controlled the industry is and will never be convinced that just because they (or the companies) want something they just may not be able to have it.

The most hilarious part is that a BRZ STi would probably result in very few incremental sales. For all the talk that about demand, the reality is that the BRZ is rarely cross shopped by other two door coupe buyers. Camaro and Mustang guys tend to be Camaro and Mustang guys, through and through.

If the forums are any indication, the cars most commonly cross shopped against the BRZ are ten year old S2000s and Caymans. I'd wager that if a BRZ STi with the FA20DIT was ever launched, you would just see a shift of regular BRZ buyers to the BRZ STi and a small lift from the used S2000 and Porsche guys.

[prj3ctm4yh3m]

Originally Posted by unhappymeal

The most hilarious part is that a BRZ STi would probably result in very few incremental sales. For all the talk that about demand, the reality is that the BRZ is rarely cross shopped by other two door coupe buyers. Camaro and Mustang guys tend to be Camaro and Mustang guys, through and through.

If the forums are any indication, the cars most commonly cross shopped against the BRZ are ten year old S2000s and Caymans. I'd wager that if a BRZ STi with the FA20DIT was ever launched, you would just see a shift of regular BRZ buyers to the BRZ STi and a small lift from the used S2000 and Porsche guys.

this is a great and oft-overlooked point. if the 370z was more competitive, maybe they'd have to do something. but as it is, the marginal gains to be had are minimal because they already have the majority of the capturable market.

->maybe FHI's recent announcement will mean good things to come though:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...rs-comes-next/

ETA: just saw you drive an ATS 2.0. funny af...the next-closest car i cross-shopped to the ones you mentioned..

[EAGLE5]

Funny how some people will lecture others on technical issues, but when you give clear evidence of their own misconceptions, nothing.

[KoolBRZ]

Apparently this was more of an issue in the early days of DBW throttles. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1537010
Even there, they show how the factory altered the DBW tables to make them more "peppy", to get them off the lot quicker. It caused drive-ability problems though, especially in stop and go traffic. I'm going to plot an inverse of my power curve and map my throttle accordingly. I'll let you all know how it goes.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

Then you've been wrong all these years. The pedal affects how much air is let into the engine. The amount of fuel is determined by how much air actually goes through the engine. Carburetors use comparative pressure venturi's and jets, while throttle body's with injection use airflow or air pressure sensors with oxygen sensors to determine the amount of fuel. They all relate to the throttle, but engine rpms, intake and exhaust efficiency, and valves all help determine the actual mass and velocity of the airflow.
Now unlike a cable throttle, a DBW system modulates the throttle plate for increased efficiency, which is determined, once again, by sensors, rpm, and airflow. How does it know how much to give? The gas pedal. It is telling the ECU how much power it wants from the engine. Push it down and the ECU opens the throttle plate a predetermined amount spelled out in a table, then the sensors, rpms, and airflow determine how much fuel to give it.

Yes. Like I said. Press the throttle and more air/fuel moves though. Whether sucked in or released by the ECU the process in the long run is the same. Just the delivery system changes. The amount of fuel called for is still dependant on the demand from the engine in relation to the throttle position.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Da Brz

Of course, the flipside to this was the Boss 302 Laguna Seca and the 5th gen Z28.


They weren't cheap, but they were stripper track-only cars.


I didn't hear about any of them sitting on lots for long.


Just throwing that out there; I'm done arguing for the day.

These cars are NOT Boss 02 Laguna Secs and do NOT have the fan base of the Z28. Apples to Aardvarks.


Hang in there Why you can do it! The end is near.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Obviously, it wouldn't sell in huge numbers, but I'm willing to bet a lot of people who use this car primarily on the track would have chosen a stripper model.


The Evo RS was very similar, and it's still desirable even 10 years later.


Again, it would be nice just to have the choice. More options = better

LOL another disclaimer: I am all in favour of choice and am in no way trying to say that the car as is should be exactly what everybody wants.

Anybody that wanted a stripped version here just needed to by an FRS and pull the carpets and air conditioner. Even the base model European 86 had way more than we do so there was a market for a stripped down version (small as it was).

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

MPG IS EMISSIONS!

Wrong. -TDI owner

Originally Posted by Lantana frs

Or is 200 lbs heavier.

I'd take that with acceleration on par with low/sub 5 second 0-60 cars. 200 lbs is not the end of the world, and its a far cry from the 3500 lbs that the competition weighs.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Cars can be very subject to this. The phrase "they don't make them like they used to" is bantered about a lot.

This isn't a thing anymore in the automotive industry, not since GM in the early 2000's, but engineered obsolesce is very much alive and well in other areas of the economy. I'm still running my parent's old hand me down maytag washer and dryer. Since they're so inefficient, I probably end up spending whatever I would have saved on energy costs with a new one but the plus side is they are literally 30 years old and have never skipped a beat. These new pieces of garbage have trouble even lasting a decade and its a pain having to deal with them being out of commission and waiting for repairs or shopping for a replacement.


I also had an ipod that broke 6 months after I bought it. My POS old brick MP3 player survived quite a bit of abuse and might still work if you pulled it out of whatever landfill it is in and charged it up.

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Obviously, it wouldn't sell in huge numbers, but I'm willing to bet a lot of people who use this car primarily on the track would have chosen a stripper model.


The Evo RS was very similar, and it's still desirable even 10 years later.


Again, it would be nice just to have the choice. More options = better

There's nothing at all wrong with choice, but I think most of the forum goers do not appreciate just how hard a sell this car is internally at Toyota/Subaru Corporate and their dealership networks.

I did a one-year stint as a Direct Marketing consultant for Toyota/Scion/Lexus Canada when I finished my Masters degree and boy did they hate the FR-S. They knew the customer base for the Twins is (a) impossible to please (b) do not put their money with their mouth is and (c) a pain in the ass for the warranties and quality arms of the company.

Dealers also aren't thrilled with the cars because they know their allocations are going to be lot rocks, especially if they are (forced) to take one after Q2. To put this into context, when I went to get my BRZ, the salesman said that the last BRZ he sold was 4 months ago. This is at probably the largest or second largest dealership network in Ontario where they move 100's of cars per month.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by unhappymeal

There's nothing at all wrong with choice, but I think most of the forum goers do not appreciate just how hard a sell this car is internally at Toyota/Subaru Corporate and their dealership networks.

I did a one-year stint as a Direct Marketing consultant for Toyota/Scion/Lexus Canada when I finished my Masters degree and boy did they hate the FR-S. They knew the customer base for the Twins is (a) impossible to please (b) do not put their money with their mouth is and (c) a pain in the ass for the warranties and quality arms of the company.

Well, they can get over it. In the absence of any sort of top tier halo car with the exception of the very rare LFA, neither of those brands had much of anything that was going to get people excited and bring them into showrooms so that the salesmen can try and sell them a more practical option. This went on for quite a while until the twins came along. Even if they're a sales bomb, the twins are worth it just for that. By the way, both Corvette and 911 not only accomplish this same task but they are also both PROFITABLE programs, and make a ton of money racing.