Car and Driver is F-ing Stupid

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Lantana frs

Or is 200 lbs heavier.

Oh they will just say that the manufacturer can save weight somehow. Again with total disregard to the standards that they MUST meet when building and exporting the car or what it would cost.


"Oh just use aluminum and titanium everyplace. They can do that and still sell it for $20K. My 1993 XXXX only weighs 800 pounds so they can do it if they want too"

[KoolBRZ]

Isn't using the "sport" button just re-mapping the throttle? Changing the throttle map isn't going to make it any harder to pass emissions. It's simply changing the multiplier between the pedal, and the throttle plate. It's no different then stepping down further on the pedal. It just makes the car seem more powerful because the pedal doesn't have to be pressed as far. Ecutek tuners like Circuit Motorsports have been re-mapping the throttle for years. I've heard from so-called experts, saying these engines have no low-end torque without super or turbo-charging them. I'm here to say that 10 more HP below 3k rpms makes a car a lot more fun to drive in stop and go traffic. After all, who wants to be left behind by a minivan just because you didn't down-shift when you first saw them accelerate.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Oh they will just say that the manufacturer can save weight somehow. Again with total disregard to the standards that they MUST meet when building and exporting the car or what it would cost.


"Oh just use aluminum and titanium everyplace. They can do that and still sell it for $20K. My 1993 XXXX only weighs 800 pounds so they can do it if they want too"

Toyota already made the 86 RC which only weighed 2623lbs from the factory.


If they offered it in the states I would have bought one.

[krayzie]

I wonder how much does nostalgia of manufacturers' past success play a role. Everybody will always tend to think that the past products were much better, great times. Why they could do it before and not now? Then people argue to no end.

I see this everywhere not just car forums but forums of other products. It seems to be the general trend these days.

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

Changing the throttle map isn't going to make it any harder to pass emissions.

I'm sure VW would disagree with you on this off the record lol!

BTW the general trend of car makers going to small displacement Turbos isn't really because they want to give you better low end below 3000rpm, it's really because they need some trick to pass stringent emission standards.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by krayzie

I wonder how much does nostalgia of manufacturers' past success play a role. Everybody will always tend to think that the past products were much better, great times. Why they could do it before and not now? Then people argue to no end.

I see this everywhere not just car forums but forums of other products. It seems to be the general trend these days.



I'm sure VW would disagree with you on this off the record lol!

Cars can be very subject to this. The phrase "they don't make them like they used to" is bantered about a lot. They in fact don't make them like that anymore and that is a good thing if you consider such things as being alive or able to walk important to you.
There is also false nostalgia that comes with pop culture. There are millions of people that think some cars are the greatest ever made since they played them on games or saw them in movies. They may have never seen one in real life much less drove one but damnit that is the bestest car ever built and don't try to tell them otherwise.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Toyota already made the 86 RC which only weighed 2623lbs from the factory.


If they offered it in the states I would have bought one.

So they saved 120 pounds without a turbo and all the supporting structure. And they could not bring it here because it probably did not meat the safety requirements anyway. We are back to square one.

[KoolBRZ]

Originally Posted by krayzie

I wonder how much does nostalgia of manufacturers' past success play a role. Everybody will always tend to think that the past products were much better, great times. Why they could do it before and not now? Then people argue to no end.

I see this everywhere not just car forums but forums of other products. It seems to be the general trend these days.



I'm sure VW would disagree with you on this off the record lol!

If you're alluding to VW's diesel emissions fiasco, then you obviously don't know that diesels don't even have a throttle plate, so the comparison doesn't work. Diesel throttles control how much fuel is injected, as well as when it is injected.
Now if they changed the DBW mapping on their gas engine cars, that wouldn't make it any harder, or easier, to pass DEQ, since it would just be affecting the throttle plate. Changing the throttle mapping is just like putting on a lead boot. It changes how much is demanded from the engine.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

If you're alluding to VW's diesel emissions fiasco, then you obviously don't know that diesels don't even have a throttle plate, so the comparison doesn't work. Diesel throttles control how much fuel is injected, as well as when it is injected.
Now if they changed the DBW mapping on their gas engine cars, that wouldn't make it any harder, or easier, to pass DEQ, since it would just be affecting the throttle plate. Changing the throttle mapping is just like putting on a lead boot. It changes how much is demanded from the engine.

No I was thinking petrol engines.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volk...xide-1.3321519

Anyway wouldn't changing the throttle mapping like you said would make the gas pedal harder to modulate? It's not an ON/OFF switch. There used to be a device that somebody sells that plugs into the OBD port doing exactly what you are thinking.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

When they changed to a 4.3 FD, the MPG went down. The tested emissions are unchanged, since most testing is done stationary, and the testing done on a roller is done by rpms, not mph. The car is emitting more emissions at 55 mph than it was before, since the rpms are higher, but it also emits more in all the lower gears at 55 mph. I'm talking about the emission control used to pass requirements, not total emissions. You want an emission-less vehicle, get a G-Whiz.

Changing the final drive was a doable way to improve acceleration without having to rebuild the entire damned car. They must have had long, long discussions and negotiations about their various options. Toyota and Subaru probably made enough gains in MPG through other models so that they could take the 1 mpg hit on the twins. CO2 is an emission, so emissions increased.

The changes you made likely affected MPG on the test cycle, a test quite different from your personal use. Your changes affected emissions of NOx, CO, and HC, not to mention reliability. For a mass produced product with mass produced variation for mass produced markets and tastes, you tune is not some magic bullet that will work.

Yes, throttle mapping absolutely affects emissions.

I already own an EV, thanks.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

Diesel throttles control how much fuel is injected, as well as when it is injected.
Changing the throttle mapping is just like putting on a lead boot. It changes how much is demanded from the engine.

I strongly believe that that is exactly what the gas pedal does as well. (Unless I have been totally wrong about cars all these years).


Which is exactly the same as you said for the diesel just worded differently.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

If you're alluding to VW's diesel emissions fiasco, then you obviously don't know that diesels don't even have a throttle plate, so the comparison doesn't work. Diesel throttles control how much fuel is injected, as well as when it is injected.
Now if they changed the DBW mapping on their gas engine cars, that wouldn't make it any harder, or easier, to pass DEQ, since it would just be affecting the throttle plate. Changing the throttle mapping is just like putting on a lead boot. It changes how much is demanded from the engine.

Many diesel engines have throttle plates. The Toyota 1KZ-TE, for instance.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Da Brz

Which is exactly how your post made me feel, but from the opposite direction.


We hug now.

I think it is very important that I clarify something.
I am in no way, shape or form against increasing power in these cars. I know it may appear that way but that is not the fact and I have said it many, many times. If you want 700HP for drag racing or 300 just so you can brag on Facebook I really don't care. The only time it makes a difference is if you want it because somebody else told you that you needed it or you read that was the "ideal". I am just as surprised as anybody that they have not offered at least a factory approved supercharger to give people the 50 more HP that they so seem to desire.


My objection is to those that say they can't keep up with traffic or the car needs more just to be a daily driver. I also have issues with those that attribute stupidity or laziness on the designers part for not giving them what they think the car needs or that they just think they have outsmarted the thousands of people involved in the design of the car. They simply have no concept of how controlled the industry is and will never be convinced that just because they (or the companies) want something they just may not be able to have it.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Toyota already made the 86 RC which only weighed 2623lbs from the factory.


If they offered it in the states I would have bought one.

They were selling the bare bones car in Germany. Do you know how many they were sold? Maybe 1 for every 50 full spec cars. Funny thing ... when I got mine, the dealer was thinking that the factory made a mistake and forgot to install a carpet in the trunk!






It looks that most people are not interested on such cars.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

They were selling the bare bones car in Germany. Do you know how many they were sold? Maybe 1 for every 50 full spec cars. Funny thing ... when I got mine, the dealer thought that the factory made a mistake and forgot to install a carpet in the trunk!
It looks that most people are not interested on such cars.

And the few that are interested hang out on forums and scream that this is what everybody wants. I bet if offered here then they would sell at about the same rate as there, people would expect to buy them for $15K and be mad when they weren't.