Why did I wait so long to try the pedal dance

[dalte2]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I do whatever is needed to load the vehicle how I need it to, s2000 or anything else.

Do you happen to have any S2k specific or more uncommonly, CR specific experience?

A fellow AX participant has an S2000 AP1 and he is a fairly quick driver, though not a top 10. Before buying my GR86, I rode in his car for a couple of runs to help me decide what platform would be next in my AX progression.

It seemed that based on the cars age and the level of tech on the car that it had less nannies that would interfere. And, having less, it would allow more driver finess. I'll just end it here with the statement that I doubt that I would be competitive in that car, in my car, or in any car, if I didn't trail brake. Trail braking has allowed me to signficantly improve my times. In addition, the drivers that are faster than me at my local AX all trail brake. Others will choose their own path.

[DocWalt]

Having driven a lot of autocross and track (quite successfully at both I'll add)... if you're not trail braking at autocross you're going slow.


You want to maximize the gSum/combined G and you can't do that on entry unless you're trail braking.




Also, I've driven S2000s including CRs, first gen twins, Evos, Miatas, Corvettes, Mustangs, Camaros, Caymans, 911s, Teslas, all sorts of FWD shitboxes, etc. Yeah every car is different but your goal is still to put the car at the limit and you're not going to do that without trail braking.




FWIW I've never liked the pedal dance. Why give up the free advantage of effectively being able to brake every wheel individually to maximize the braking potential?




and yes, I *can* show data logs of trail braking at autocross to maximize the grip

[steverife]

I don't even know how you'd autocross at a non first event'ish novice level and not trail brake. It isn't something where people are like, "I shall incorporate trailbraking into my program" and read articles and watch vids. People just need to turn and scrub speed in very limited space. Frequently.

[nissanfanatic]

Originally Posted by dalte2

It seemed that based on the cars age and the level of tech on the car that it had less nannies that would interfere. And, having less, it would allow more driver finess.

idk I tracked an AP1 S2000 for ~7 years stock -> wing + 17x9s. I've also tracked quite a few other cars (240sx, evo, miata, sti...) and done some chumpcar stints. I'd say the handling dynamic is a little different than S2000, sure, but once I turned off TC/VSC I didn't notice any more or less nannies than the S2000; pretty sure the only nanny left at that point is ABS, which I'm good, I'll keep that nanny (unless we are talking rally[x], then yea pull the fuse).

[RedReplicant]

I also tracked an S2000 for a few years, the funny part was they were three channel ABS instead of the MK60E1 four channel unless it was a DBW car and it still felt pretty good.

Is the CR question meant to be a reference to the MK60E1 that the DBW cars got with EBD / CBC? That stuff stays functional in the MK60/MK60E1 no matter what unless you've got a specific unit that has been reflashed. I put a MK60 that I set CSL params on into a Miata, it was pretty life changing back to back with stock Miata ABS and the only downside was CBC more or less not letting you go over a specific amount of slip under trail braking on corner entry, which I was more than happy to work around in exchange.

Is the implication we're supposed to be grasping here that the friction oval (face it, it's not a circle) has more area inside the curve in the top two quadrants with pedal dance versus long hold? I guess I'll wire the buttons back into my car so I can test in the fall, unless someone wants to plot their AIM data.

[Lincoln Logs]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Having driven a lot of autocross and track (quite successfully at both I'll add)... if you're not trail braking at autocross you're going slow.


You want to maximize the gSum/combined G and you can't do that on entry unless you're trail braking.




Also, I've driven S2000s including CRs, first gen twins, Evos, Miatas, Corvettes, Mustangs, Camaros, Caymans, 911s, Teslas, all sorts of FWD shitboxes, etc. Yeah every car is different but your goal is still to put the car at the limit and you're not going to do that without trail braking.




FWIW I've never liked the pedal dance. Why give up the free advantage of effectively being able to brake every wheel individually to maximize the braking potential?




and yes, I *can* show data logs of trail braking at autocross to maximize the grip

100% agree on your comments about trail braking.

I have had similar experiences with the pedal dance as well. The ABS on the 2017+ Gen 1.5 cars is even better, I feel like a complete hero with the AP Sprint kit too. Everyone who drives my car comments on how good the brakes are on the limit trail braking.

[nissanfanatic]

Originally Posted by RedReplicant

I also tracked an S2000 for a few years, the funny part was they were three channel ABS instead of the MK60E1 four channel unless it was a DBW car and it still felt pretty good.

Mine was not DBW. What I would give to have cable throttle again... lol

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Having driven a lot of autocross and track (quite successfully at both I'll add)... if you're not trail braking at autocross you're going slow.


You want to maximize the gSum/combined G and you can't do that on entry unless you're trail braking.




Also, I've driven S2000s including CRs, first gen twins, Evos, Miatas, Corvettes, Mustangs, Camaros, Caymans, 911s, Teslas, all sorts of FWD shitboxes, etc. Yeah every car is different but your goal is still to put the car at the limit and you're not going to do that without trail braking.




FWIW I've never liked the pedal dance. Why give up the free advantage of effectively being able to brake every wheel individually to maximize the braking potential?




and yes, I *can* show data logs of trail braking at autocross to maximize the grip

Because if you're maximizing decel.... what are you giving up?

Food for thought.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by steverife

I don't even know how you'd autocross at a non first event'ish novice level and not trail brake. It isn't something where people are like, "I shall incorporate trailbraking into my program" and read articles and watch vids. People just need to turn and scrub speed in very limited space. Frequently.

Are you trying to turn, or scrub speed, by trail braking?

The purpose of trail braking is NOT to scrub speed. It's to get the front more loaded than just coasting, or engine braking, to enhance front grip while unloading the rears, to get the car better rotated.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by nissanfanatic

idk I tracked an AP1 S2000 for ~7 years stock -> wing + 17x9s. I've also tracked quite a few other cars (240sx, evo, miata, sti...) and done some chumpcar stints. I'd say the handling dynamic is a little different than S2000, sure, but once I turned off TC/VSC I didn't notice any more or less nannies than the S2000; pretty sure the only nanny left at that point is ABS, which I'm good, I'll keep that nanny (unless we are talking rally[x], then yea pull the fuse).

2nd gens don't have the interference problems 1st gens do.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Because if you're maximizing decel.... what are you giving up?

Food for thought.

Can you stop with the condescending questions and just tell the crowd what you think we're giving up?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Can you stop with the condescending questions and just tell the crowd what you think we're giving up?

Do you prefer just having the answers fed to you on a spoon? I prefer to get people to think for themselves and hopefully, come up with an answer, even if not necessarily correct. The thought process and the pathway to which they got to the conclusion, right or wrong, gives me context on how/why they believe or think what they believe.

You'd be surprised how many people just blindly hold something they were told to gospel, until they actually think it through, and realize, that something doesn't make sense. Or maybe it does make sense after all.


If you are using all your grip for decel, you don't have grip available to turn.

If you're using all your grip to turn, you don't have any decel.

Tires suck at multitasking, generally speaking. Ask them to do too much, and you get poor results under most circumstances.

at the 11s and 32s marks.... you're asking the tires to do too much. While you may have gotten your desired result, I just see way too much input overlap, and a type of input that simply is incompatible without electronic intervention. I get that you prefer to have the electronics working for you. I prefer a more pure approach to driving when not in vehicles with mandated homologated electronic use.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Do you prefer just having the answers fed to you on a spoon? I prefer to get people to think for themselves and hopefully, come up with an answer, even if not necessarily correct. The thought process and the pathway to which they got to the conclusion, right or wrong, gives me context on how/why they believe or think what they believe.

You'd be surprised how many people just blindly hold something they were told to gospel, until they actually think it through, and realize, that something doesn't make sense. Or maybe it does make sense after all.

Mike,


If you truly believe that trail braking doesn't exist for autocross, you're wrong. Plain and simple. The fast drivers all use trail braking.


That said, I'll play along with your dumb little game here...


You give up the ability to steer while at maximum deceleration, which is why you trail off the pedal as you turn the wheel in.





If you believe there's something else, explain for the class please. This behavior is ridiculous and you do this a lot to a lot of people that are willing to accept it and I am not.

[DocWalt]

Until Mike can prove otherwise, here are some results and video that demonstrate why I think he's wrong about trail braking for autocross.

Note, every single corner I braked, I trail braked.


Also, see the results here... 2021 ProSolo Champion.








If you want to clap back at me because I didn't share track videos I can go dig up some track videos of me in a ~180whp RX-8 with coilovers and tires running 2:10s at VIR.

But I don't know what I'm talking about and I get to be talked to condescendingly by a sponsor of the forum? I fail to see how that's acceptable behavior.