Why did I wait so long to try the pedal dance

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

Not sure why people think one or the other is better. Results above don't lie. Some would imply what I am able to do with EBD active is impossible

That is interesting for me to watch as I too have issues trail braking without PD. I always kind of chalked it up to surface and input as the difference between track guys and AutoX guys when it comes to it but now I am really not sure.

[Molez93]

For clarification, what exactly is the "5 Button" press Kyle references a couple posts ago? Is that a 5 second hold of the traction control button or something else? TIA

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Molez93

For clarification, what exactly is the "5 Button" press Kyle references a couple posts ago? Is that a 5 second hold of the traction control button or something else? TIA

Yes, 5 second press is referencing holding the traction button. Pedal Dance is a diagnostic mode which disables EBD and brake LSD and is done by cycling the brake pedal and e brake in a certain pattern and within a time and engine temp range.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

Not sure why people think one or the other is better. Results above don't lie. Some would imply what I am able to do with EBD active is impossible

Yup - its possible under both conditions. It didn’t appear that your setup or that track has significant trail-in moments but it’s a good show case that makes the point. Also - your car sounds great. At Pacific Raceways we have massive trail-in moment in turn 2 and Turn 3a. The difference between PD and 5-sec is almost indistinguishable everywhere else but in those two corners it’s very evident and I can’t get into them as fast or use the brake to pitch the rear without PD engaged. The hair pin which is also banked LOVES a deep trail.

People exaggerate but in racing where the differences are tiny, having an electronic function on a car that allow for a more optimal feel or entry into a corner FEELS like a big deals even if the measurable difference is very small.

[jcaserta]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Rather than just reading what is available here, I encourage you to dive a bit deeper into the data that is posted, as well as your own experiences, to draw your own conclusions.

Trail braking practice ideally is under a much more control set of circumstances, such as a skidpad by yourself, where you can repeat over and over to see the before/after and direct effect.

In these types of discussions, I prefer to stick to strictly the facts and evidence, rather than toot my own horn, but things get so muddied online where everyone is an expert.

Do what gets you the best results, but do try to keep an open mind; you never know when what you originally thought to be wrong, might be right.

There's really no need to test here, it's simple physics. That's like saying "don't just trust that adding horsepower will increase your top speed in straights, you need to test varying horsepower levels over and over by yourself to see whether a more powerful motor helps or not".

By trail braking correctly you will always see more total combined G's than by not trail braking, and more total G's is always going to make the car do whatever you want it to do faster, it's more total g's. Yes your lateral or longitudinal g's will be lower than if you didn't but the total g's will be higher, and that's the actual g's the tire is generating.

The end effect is that you can brake later by trail braking, and go faster overall. Always. No testing needed. I've been autocrossing for 23 years in tons of different cars on all kinds of tires and it's always true. Of course if your car setup is very, very screwed up, maybe not, but in that case the guy who has a normal setup that allows trail braking will destroy you.

I autocross using 5 second press btw. I've tested pedal dance a couple times and it feels the same to me. I'm very light on the brakes though and pretty much never engage ABS so it's hard to tell any difference. I just won NJ ProSolo by a pretty good amount (I was top qualifier, which means of all the classes I won by the most) and people were asking me about PD vs not and I didn't know the answers, which is why I'm here trying to learn.

And yes I trail brake every turn in a first gen twin.

You really need to follow your own advice: "you never know when what you originally thought to be wrong, might be right"

[renfield90]

2021 STX ProSolo champ here in a first gen twin (lol I think that makes me the third ProSolo champ to post in this thread, unless I missed someone else). Also P2 at nationals last year by 0.1s.

I do not use the pedal dance, despite testing it extensively. I also do lots of trail braking. If someone thinks trail braking in autocross is wrong, respectfully, come to Solo nationals and win yourself a jacket. Shouldn't be hard if we're all doing it wrong.

I do think people should try it. For some setups and driving styles, it can work better; the clock never lies, go get your own data and decide.

[justint5387]

Man came back again, CSG is the best! Can you show up at an autox and show us all those almighty ability and knowledge?

[jflogerzi]

Well this thread blew up... durp

[DocWalt]

So I drove a car with a ridiculous front brake bias... and now I think I know why CSG insists on doing the PD.


For 90+% of people that are using an appropriate brake bias, the PD won't be necessary or even help.


For people using way more aggressive front brakes than rear, PD is probably necessary or the car is fighting your fucked up brake bias that the system isn't expecting.

[jflogerzi]

aftermarket kit or just pad change? curious

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[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

aftermarket kit or just pad change? curious

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

This was an afternarket kit

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

So I drove a car with a ridiculous front brake bias... and now I think I know why CSG insists on doing the PD.


For 90+% of people that are using an appropriate brake bias, the PD won't be necessary or even help.


For people using way more aggressive front brakes than rear, PD is probably necessary or the car is fighting your fucked up brake bias that the system isn't expecting.

Wilwood/RR Racing kit?

I know that @rice_classic did a bunch of testing on different pad compounds to get his car to brake the way he wanted so I don't think that is 100% it. I am running the ST40 328mm kit which is pretty close to stock bias but am running more rear pad mostly due to my rear aero bias.

[SCFD]

Trail braking seems to work fine for me without using PD.

[jflogerzi]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Wilwood/RR Racing kit?

I know that @rice_classic did a bunch of testing on different pad compounds to get his car to brake the way he wanted so I don't think that is 100% it. I am running the ST40 328mm kit which is pretty close to stock bias but am running more rear pad mostly due to my rear aero bias.

I do run a RR racing front and rear kit. so far no complaints with carbotech xp12s and 8s in the rear. I know I am still front bias but... idk works me. not far off times of the pretty fast twins at tracks I am used to. and it's more me as a driver vs the car

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