CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[churchx]

Guys: what do you think of creating something similar to steve99's Basic Bolt on mods intake, exhaust tuning guide, but for suspension?

I see it as something newbie friendly to get most of FAQ information about suspension upgrades in general with main information from separate threads such as stickies and many RCE's/CSG threads united in one big post + some generalised info on return/value from upgrades.

So that even newbies on this platform can start much quicker on without reading for few months all threads worth reading, if they are impatient and willing :
1) which upgrades set/order is advised for budget of ..1K-1.5K-2.5K-3.5K-5K-..$
(preferably with extra expansion if main aim for daily driving or for track)
2) some main conceptions explained in short words and mentioned which common mistakes better not to do to not spoil the handling
3) some 'safe'/'common'/'generic' advised settings for suspension/tire pressure/alignment tunables.

There are endless possibilities for suspension for this platform. In fact - so much info that it became too hard to actually evaluate at which budget what should be bought best. Month reading in many threads, many of which contain also too subjective/placebo views on different suspension upgrades, and i'm still at same position as half a year ago with no clarity despite all the reading done. No one guide to rule .. err, unify suspension upgrades info in general/into one .
Such potential basic guide post/thread shouldn't be focused on naming specific brands, rather help evaluate on what suspension parts in what sets, in what order, in what aproximate price levels to search further info on / to buy.
Bushings? Adjustable control arms? Coils or Coilovers? Rigid collars? Sway bars? In what order these should be bought depending on different overall budget levels for suspension? Any possible clarity simply drowns in too much of information, leaving too much guesswork to which upgrades will net more gain per specific budget levels.

[scirocco78]

Originally Posted by scirocco78

What size rear sway bar requires the use of these rear sway bar support braces I see being sold? Does it depend on what spring rates you have too?

[notout86]

Originally Posted by notout86

This thread is amazing. So much to know. I curse the person who pointed me to it.

All I want is to keep the nice even wear I am getting, but make it so I get a smaller radius turn for a given angle of the steering wheel. When I try to nose-in park between 2 cars I tend to overshoot, and at the same time the back does not come out and around, like it did in my previous car. At roundabouts I have to adjust steering or paddle-shift down helps, whereas my previous just seemed to go round I am not talking a lack of lock. Can it be as simple as a little more front toe out and rear toe in?

To kill time while waiting for a reply (hint hint) I experimented with tyre pressures. Changing from 35 front and back to 36 in the front and 34 at the back was effective in making the car feel like it is gliding around roundabouts like my previous car. I also have more feel for what the back is doing. I like it!

I would still like a smaller radius turn for a given angle of the steering wheel. and the back come out and around more when nose-in parking.

[DeaconRoc]

Quick question, should the bolts on the camber top mounts have a gap between the bolts or is it ok for them to be together as on the picture below?

[churchx]

My guess would be that it's fine as is, and very probably if you have alignment done with these as is, i'd leave it. For myself i'd put bolts more apart only due easier access to them with tooling, as sometimes it's harder if one bolt is too close to another, and for piece of mind (habit, that more apart bolts fixate stronger. but shock doesn't carries much sideways strength on these bolts, so shouldn't matter).

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by scirocco78

File that one under not 100% necessary to have.

If I had a set lying around I'd put them on.

- Andy

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by churchx

Guys: what do you think of creating something similar to steve99's Basic Bolt on mods intake, exhaust tuning guide, but for suspension?

I see it as something newbie friendly to get most of FAQ information about suspension upgrades in general with main information from separate threads such as stickies and many RCE's/CSG threads united in one big post + some generalised info on return/value from upgrades.

So that even newbies on this platform can start much quicker on without reading for few months all threads worth reading, if they are impatient and willing :
1) which upgrades set/order is advised for budget of ..1K-1.5K-2.5K-3.5K-5K-..$
(preferably with extra expansion if main aim for daily driving or for track)
2) some main conceptions explained in short words and mentioned which common mistakes better not to do to not spoil the handling
3) some 'safe'/'common'/'generic' advised settings for suspension/tire pressure/alignment tunables.

There are endless possibilities for suspension for this platform. In fact - so much info that it became too hard to actually evaluate at which budget what should be bought best. Month reading in many threads, many of which contain also too subjective/placebo views on different suspension upgrades, and i'm still at same position as half a year ago with no clarity despite all the reading done. No one guide to rule .. err, unify suspension upgrades info in general/into one .
Such potential basic guide post/thread shouldn't be focused on naming specific brands, rather help evaluate on what suspension parts in what sets, in what order, in what aproximate price levels to search further info on / to buy.
Bushings? Adjustable control arms? Coils or Coilovers? Rigid collars? Sway bars? In what order these should be bought depending on different overall budget levels for suspension? Any possible clarity simply drowns in too much of information, leaving too much guesswork to which upgrades will net more gain per specific budget levels.

I've been tempted to do this a couple times as long as I've been at RCE (holy crap over 10 years now).

The main thing is that suspension is sooo not formulaic and doesn't quite work IMO the same way staged power upgrades do (although I say that as someone that isn't a power guy so I may just be ignorant). It is difficult to recommend one size fits all systems, or at least the little details that make a huge difference (alignment, etc). Sometimes there can be a clear upgrade path, sometimes it's better to just go with a complete system from the start. I'm always more comfortable talking to each driver and getting a feel for what will work for their usage and preferences, and building/tuning something from there.

I did make that "How NOT to make your car handle thread"...I'll bump that in a minute. I was thinking about doing the flip side of that but it's difficult because there's so much to talk about. Maybe I'll get around to it though.

- andrew

[churchx]

Maybe i've asked for too much info to be squeezed in, and too wide to fit it in not just one or two posts, but rather 50+ page article How about something narrowed down?
Leaving aside different ways of driving/usage/perferences, i somewhat guesstimate that average majority of this car drivers will be 99% DD + one or two trackdays per year. So if such theoretical customer comes in, and asks for you what set of suspension upgrades/boltons to buy for total of $1K/$1.5K/$2.5K/$3.5K/$5K and more? (I guess that analogue of cheapest "upgrade" comparable to installing $40 dropin aftermarket airfilter in exhaust/intake boltons guide is performing alignment on even stock suspension ).
And rest of info can be added in later depending on available time, or maybe url-linked to other threads, where there is more nfo but specific to some theme. For example that 'How to screw up handling' thread , or link to DIY alignment with strings, or urls to threads describing some suspension component in depth.

However it ends up, there has to be bit 'for these budgets, what sets of suspension upgrades to buy' for those unwilling to read a LOT and for LONG.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

I've been tempted to do this a couple times as long as I've been at RCE (holy crap over 10 years now).

The main thing is that suspension is sooo not formulaic and doesn't quite work IMO the same way staged power upgrades do (although I say that as someone that isn't a power guy so I may just be ignorant). It is difficult to recommend one size fits all systems, or at least the little details that make a huge difference (alignment, etc). Sometimes there can be a clear upgrade path, sometimes it's better to just go with a complete system from the start. I'm always more comfortable talking to each driver and getting a feel for what will work for their usage and preferences, and building/tuning something from there.

I did make that "How NOT to make your car handle thread"...I'll bump that in a minute. I was thinking about doing the flip side of that but it's difficult because there's so much to talk about. Maybe I'll get around to it though.

- andrew

http://949racing.com/miata-race-alignment-info.aspx < - as an example of some generalized recommendations.


I ran the Big Grip Kit (800/500lb AST/XIDAs = amazing) on their race alignment and it was AMAZING what you could do with the car.


Then again, it was $3100 suspension setup.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by churchx

Maybe i've asked for too much info to be squeezed in, and too wide to fit it in not just one or two posts, but rather 50+ page article How about something narrowed down?
Leaving aside different ways of driving/usage/perferences, i somewhat guesstimate that average majority of this car drivers will be 99% DD + one or two trackdays per year. So if such theoretical customer comes in, and asks for you what set of suspension upgrades/boltons to buy for total of $1K/$1.5K/$2.5K/$3.5K/$5K and more? (I guess that analogue of cheapest "upgrade" comparable to installing $40 dropin aftermarket airfilter in exhaust/intake boltons guide is performing alignment on even stock suspension ).
And rest of info can be added in later depending on available time, or maybe url-linked to other threads, where there is more nfo but specific to some theme. For example that 'How to screw up handling' thread , or link to DIY alignment with strings, or urls to threads describing some suspension component in depth.

However it ends up, there has to be bit 'for these budgets, what sets of suspension upgrades to buy' for those unwilling to read a LOT and for LONG.

I'll see what I can do.

- Andrew

[calmtigers]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

I'll see what I can do.

- Andrew

Similar to this I'd ask which braces you'd recommend as most worthwhile or those you feel are gimicky!

[Shankenstein]

Originally Posted by calmtigers

Similar to this I'd ask which braces you'd recommend as most worthwhile or those you feel are gimicky!

Mann Engineering attempted to do this with their staged suspension packages:
LINK to Mann Eng

Generally speaking:
<$25 = camber bolts (Subaru or SPC)
<$75 = alignment
<$250 = strut tower bar (Grimmspeed, Whiteline, Cusco, etc)
<$300 = differential bushings/inserts + braces
<$500 = sway bars (Eibach, Strano, Whiteline, Hotchkis, Perrin)
<$750 = quality tires (RS-3, ZII, PSS, RE71R, etc)
<$1500 = springs/shocks (Bilstein/Koni + Swift, RCE, spring of choice)
<$1750 = differential (1.5 way OS Giken)
<$2000 = entry-level coilover (Bilstein B14, Fortune Auto 500, RCE Tarmac Zero, KW V1, ST Suspensions, Tein Flex series) + rear lower control arm (SPC, SPL, many others) + camber plate (if needed, HVT or Raceseng)
~$3000 = high-quality coilover (Ohlins R&T, RCE Tarmac II, KW V3, Tein SRC, MCS TT1, AST 4150, Mann Engineering)
unlimited = chassis bracing and bushings (front and rear subframe seems to be good targets)

Order of importance? (my opinion, which is likely wrong)
1) Camber, alignment, and tires
2) Springs/struts or Coilovers (depends on budget and driving style)
3) Sway bars
4) Bushings
5) Chassis bracing (including strut tower bar)
6) Differential

[BigFatFlip]

^Very well put, although I'm biased and would add Ohlins R&T to the ~$3k high quality (but simple single adjustable) coilover

[dp1]

Originally Posted by BigFatFlip

^Very well put, although I'm biased and would add Ohlins R&T to the ~$3k high quality (but simple single adjustable) coilover

I'm biased too and really like a little bit stiffer springs on Ohlins R&T. Springs are ~$60 a piece (x4). It's easier to rotate the car (especially at lower speeds) without making the ride too stiff on the street. Went from stock Ohlins 343lb springs at four corners to Eibach Sport springs 375lb front/425lb rear, also revalved.