Winter Driving?

[drewbot]

So why do you still have a BRZ if you dislike it so much?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[theurbaninja]

Woooowwwwww.

Originally Posted by Suberman

There is an electronic diff in our cars. That is what traction control means. The clutch is bloody awful. There is no need for a special clutch to handle 151 lb ft of torque. My turbo cars use a perfectly ordinary clutch and handle up to 350 lb ft of torque without the abrupt take up of the BRZ clutch. The BRZ clutch is a poorly designed and executed system from the pedal to the plate, just awful.

There is no need to apply the footbrake, the TRAC system uses ABS reservoir pressure to do so. The TRAC system will also cut the electronic throttle back in addition to applying the brake quite aggressively if you don't react by lifting off yourself. All these traction control systems work in the same fashion.

Some manufacturers (VW for example laughably calls it an EDL as if it actually does something to the differential) like to actually call traction control an electronic diff but it's just traction control. Electronically controlled diffs are another matter and also incorporate hydraulic and mechanical components modulated by software specific to the diff. The BRZ doesn't have that but those are not electronic diffs as they are partly mechanical.

Most, if not all, traction control systems also incorporate a yaw sensor and steering angle sensor allowing for stability control also using ABS reservoir pressure to induce counter yaw forces.

Your comments about the rear axle being ok are incorrect in my opinion. Just for example, my 1982 Alfa Romeo GTV6 was a better balanced car, 30 years ago. A pure drivers car for driving on the road as opposed to a track should drive the same way rain or shine or snow for that matter. If it doesn't then somebody screwed up somewhere. A Porsche cayman for example is a superb winter car and handles the track just fine. It isn't rocket science it's just suspension design. This BRZ is worse than a 70's BMW in winter, and that's saying something !

Was my Alfa light weight? Not for the times but it was lighter than a BRZ by a 100 kg or so. Was it powerful? Oddly, yes compared to the BRZ it produced 155 bhp and 151 lb ft. I drove mine for two winters on Pirelli P6 tires, one of the early "high performance" summer tires. Baby brother to the awesome P7 which was the very first high performance low profile street tire. No problems with grip or chassis balance but then that was one of the all time great road cars.

Anyway, vehicle weight is irrelevant to traction and stability. Friction doesn't work that way which is why it's referred to as a coefficient.

The high performance winter Sottozeros work fine on four other cars I've fitted them to and in any event are far superior to the P6 in winter!

[Kazuya]

I think he just likes to voice his opinion.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by drewbot

So why do you still have a BRZ if you dislike it so much?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

One defect isn't enough to dislike the whole car.

It is annoying that demographics affects car design so much.

Because if this designed in "defect" this car will top out quite quickly in the market.

Because the car lacks power to overcome even the modest stock tire grip for most drivers they will not experience the defect until they make an emergency maneuver in the wet or snow or ice.

Apparently, even then most of you won't know why you crashed.

The car oversteers far too easily. This can be "corrected" by fitting better summer tires but only for dry roads. If Subaru ever does offer a forced induction version they will have to correct this fault.

The car is undrivable in the wet or snow or on ice. It ought not to be.

If it were designed properly for real drivers it would not do this. It would also then be easier to drive and faster.

These are demonstrable facts, not just my opinion. I can demonstrate the flaw in the chassis any time you like. Wear a set of depends though if you decide to take me up on this.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Kazuya

I think he just likes to voice his opinion.

I appreciate being quoted so extensively when I do.

[Ongor]

Originally Posted by Suberman

One defect isn't enough to dislike the whole car.

It is annoying that demographics affects car design so much.

Because if this designed in "defect" this car will top out quite quickly in the market.

Because the car lacks power to overcome even the modest stock tire grip for most drivers they will not experience the defect until they make an emergency maneuver in the wet or snow or ice.

Apparently, even then most of you won't know why you crashed.

The car oversteers far too easily. This can be "corrected" by fitting better summer tires but only for dry roads. If Subaru ever does offer a forced induction version they will have to correct this fault.

The car is undrivable in the wet or snow or on ice. It ought not to be.

If it were designed properly for real drivers it would not do this. It would also then be easier to drive and faster.

These are demonstrable facts, not just my opinion. I can demonstrate the flaw in the chassis any time you like. Wear a set of depends though if you decide to take me up on this.

Dude, I'm in montreal, and drove the car in snow/ice with the stock tires and now with my winter tires. The car is fine on snow/ice. Drives like any other car. I was actually surprised how much grip the car has with the winter tires. And when you want to have fun, you can turn off trac control and drift whenever you want. I don't know what you expected from a lightweight, balanced, rear-weel drive car... buy an AWD if you're so afraid of winter...

[7thgear]

the car is touchy on the throttle yes

but it's also very controllable

so i don't see a problem... had a lot of fun this morning navigating the GTA's first snowfall.



respect the weather conditions
train your right foot
stay in higher gears

and... pratice!

[wparsons]

I'm speechless, SO much mis-information...

Originally Posted by Suberman

There is an electronic diff in our cars. That is what traction control means. The clutch is bloody awful. There is no need for a special clutch to handle 151 lb ft of torque. My turbo cars use a perfectly ordinary clutch and handle up to 350 lb ft of torque without the abrupt take up of the BRZ clutch. The BRZ clutch is a poorly designed and executed system from the pedal to the plate, just awful.

Wrong, an electronic diff and traction control are 100% not the same thing.

An electronic diff is a system that uses the brakes to mimic the behaviour of an LSD, so if a wheel starts to unload the computer will brake it to shift power to the wheel with grip.

As for the clutch, I find it drives just fine and isn't that abrupt at all. It doesn't have a ton of feedback, but it's plenty easy to modulate.

Originally Posted by Suberman

There is no need to apply the footbrake, the TRAC system uses ABS reservoir pressure to do so. The TRAC system will also cut the electronic throttle back in addition to applying the brake quite aggressively if you don't react by lifting off yourself. All these traction control systems work in the same fashion.

Some manufacturers (VW for example laughably calls it an EDL as if it actually does something to the differential) like to actually call traction control an electronic diff but it's just traction control. Electronically controlled diffs are another matter and also incorporate hydraulic and mechanical components modulated by software specific to the diff. The BRZ doesn't have that but those are not electronic diffs as they are partly mechanical.

Most, if not all, traction control systems also incorporate a yaw sensor and steering angle sensor allowing for stability control also using ABS reservoir pressure to induce counter yaw forces.

You're talking about stability control, not traction control. Two different systems, working in parallel.

Traction control limits the tires spinning and doesn't care about yaw at all. The TC system limits power output to keep the wheels from spinning, not the brakes.

Stability control (VSC) uses the brakes to keep the car on the intended course but doesn't care about tires spinning, just the relative yaw angle of the car compared to the steering input.

You can test these out in a snowy parking lot very easily. Leave both systems fully on and try to accelerate fast in a straight line, the TC will cut power but VSC won't intervene. Now push the TC button (don't hold it) and the VSC button (you'll have three lights on the dash lit) and try to do a donut. You can get lots of wheelspin, but the VSC system will keep you from fully spinning.

Then hold the TC button in for a few seconds to disable TC and VSC and try again totally unaided.

Some cars bundle them together in your ability to disable them, but they're still two systems working in different ways for different reasons.

Originally Posted by Suberman

Your comments about the rear axle being ok are incorrect in my opinion. Just for example, my 1982 Alfa Romeo GTV6 was a better balanced car, 30 years ago. A pure drivers car for driving on the road as opposed to a track should drive the same way rain or shine or snow for that matter. If it doesn't then somebody screwed up somewhere. A Porsche cayman for example is a superb winter car and handles the track just fine. It isn't rocket science it's just suspension design. This BRZ is worse than a 70's BMW in winter, and that's saying something !

I don't know what magical land you live in, but traction is traction. A car doesn't know what surface it's on. These cars handle ice/snow exactly the same as they handle on dry pavement, just at lower speeds/forces.

Have you actually driven a Cayman in the snow, or just going off what you read? I've driven a 911 in the snow, and my FR-S is better behaved. The 911 isn't scary, but it's also not what I would call beginner friendly.

One thing you need to keep in mind is that 30 years ago cars didn't have anywhere near the dry traction that a modern car does, so the difference in grip between dry pavement and snow is much more noticeable now.

Originally Posted by Suberman

Was my Alfa light weight? Not for the times but it was lighter than a BRZ by a 100 kg or so. Was it powerful? Oddly, yes compared to the BRZ it produced 155 bhp and 151 lb ft. I drove mine for two winters on Pirelli P6 tires, one of the early "high performance" summer tires. Baby brother to the awesome P7 which was the very first high performance low profile street tire. No problems with grip or chassis balance but then that was one of the all time great road cars.

I would be willing to bet that the Alfa you're talking about was nowhere near as balanced at the limit as you remember. All cars back then were balanced towards understeer to keep them on the roads. The only reason Toyota/Subaru can sell these cars as neutral as they are is because of VSC.

Originally Posted by Suberman

Anyway, vehicle weight is irrelevant to traction and stability. Friction doesn't work that way which is why it's referred to as a coefficient.

Not entirely true when it comes to snow... you need to compress snow to get traction, and a light car will float more than a heavy one. Yes the grip between snow and pavement is the same, and snow and tire is the same, but if you have more snow in the middle you'll have less traction for sure.

Originally Posted by Suberman

The high performance winter Sottozeros work fine on four other cars I've fitted them to and in any event are far superior to the P6 in winter!

I should hope a snow tire is better than an all season tire in the winter, but that doesn't change the fact that a studless ice/snow is FAR better on snow/ice than a performance snow.

Originally Posted by Suberman

One defect isn't enough to dislike the whole car.

It is annoying that demographics affects car design so much.

Because if this designed in "defect" this car will top out quite quickly in the market.

Because the car lacks power to overcome even the modest stock tire grip for most drivers they will not experience the defect until they make an emergency maneuver in the wet or snow or ice.

Apparently, even then most of you won't know why you crashed.

The car oversteers far too easily. This can be "corrected" by fitting better summer tires but only for dry roads. If Subaru ever does offer a forced induction version they will have to correct this fault.

The car is undrivable in the wet or snow or on ice. It ought not to be.

If it were designed properly for real drivers it would not do this. It would also then be easier to drive and faster.

These are demonstrable facts, not just my opinion. I can demonstrate the flaw in the chassis any time you like. Wear a set of depends though if you decide to take me up on this.

Are you kidding me? It doesn't over steer far too easily, unless you don't know how to drive. It's a very well balanced car that rotates properly at the limit. If this is a shock to anyone, then they REALLY didn't read any reviews prior to buying the car. IMO, this is one of the BENEFITS to the car, not a defect. There is no fault at all, except in your driving habits.

Plus, with TC and VSC on it's pretty much impossible to get these cars to spin out. If someone is driving around with the electronic aids off in the ice/snow and haven't experimented with the cars balance in those conditions, then they deserve the unexpected crash.

This is my second winter with the car, with zero issues. It's not as much of a tank in heavy snow like an S4 is, but it's also almost 1000lbs lighter without quattro so that's not a shock at all.

[tiz22]

Just experienced my first drive in some decent snow/slush/ice conditions and I gotta say - I'm very impressed.

No car this light with RWD will ever be absolutely perfect in the snow but I was expecting a lot worse...

I have Michelin Xice i3s installed on my stock rims and I was easily going around turns, changing lanes etc. in slippery conditions.

for the ultimate test - took it for a quick rip in an empty parking lot and couldn't believe how much control I had! I was drifting around light poles as if I were in an RC car

I don't know what @Suberman 's beef is but I couldn't find much to complain about with this car in winter driving...Maybe time will tell but it has definitely exceeded my expectations on first impressions

[Kazuya]

Wait until we get light and non slush snow in lots. Soooooo fun.

[congee]

I used to drive my pops awd suv with winters(overkill I know but better safe than never). The transition between that and the brz wasn't difficult. Obviously isn't as good as the suv in snow but I wasn't expecting it to be as good. It was surprisingly controllable in snow. Better than expected. This is my first winter with a light rwd car that's kind of low. Alot of people complained about rwd cars in the winter so I didn't know what to expect. A bit scared to be honest. As long as your not throttle happy than you'll be fine surviving the winter time. I do have blizzaks on which really do help.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by tiz22

Just experienced my first drive in some decent snow/slush/ice conditions and I gotta say - I'm very impressed.

No car this light with RWD will ever be absolutely perfect in the snow but I was expecting a lot worse...

I have Michelin Xice i3s installed on my stock rims and I was easily going around turns, changing lanes etc. in slippery conditions.

for the ultimate test - took it for a quick rip in an empty parking lot and couldn't believe how much control I had! I was drifting around light poles as if I were in an RC car

I don't know what @Suberman 's beef is but I couldn't find much to complain about with this car in winter driving...Maybe time will tell but it has definitely exceeded my expectations on first impressions

My "beef" is only that this car could have been so much better with more understeer built in. Faster in the wet, the snow AND the dry.

I have no trouble driving this car I just know how it could be made better. What I'm curious to know is exactly what makes this car so twitchy, and then fix it.

The weight distribution is nearly 50/50. The ground clearance is nearly 6 inches. The front wheels have positive camber and the rear wheels have negative camber. Still the car oversteers too easily.

[Suberman]

For the record an electronic LSD is just ABS based traction control. Technically it works in exactly the same way as a clutchpack type of LSD. The only difference is a clutchpack type without traction control can spin both drive wheels. Electronic LSD are universally programmed to prevent this, for good reason. Unless launch control is also programmed into the stability control.

An electronically controlled LSD is a mechanical LSD (clutch pack type) with electronic control of the clutch pack. Torque vectoring systems also exist.

Traction control and stability control are integrated systems in most modern cars. They use one computer and one software program. To achieve stability control they add inputs from a yaw sensor located in the trunk and a steering angle sensor on the steering column. Wheel speeds are taken from the ABS wheel speed sensors.

I won't bother expanding on my driving experience. Believe what you wish, doesn't affect me at all.

I do think you should remain speechless if you find yourself in that position. Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than break silence and remove all doubt. As Churchill said if Attlee: a modest little man with much to be modest about.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Ongor

Dude, I'm in montreal, and drove the car in snow/ice with the stock tires and now with my winter tires. The car is fine on snow/ice. Drives like any other car. I was actually surprised how much grip the car has with the winter tires. And when you want to have fun, you can turn off trac control and drift whenever you want. I don't know what you expected from a lightweight, balanced, rear-weel drive car... buy an AWD if you're so afraid of winter...

I have awd. I also have fwd. I can choose which to drive and compare them back to back. Anyone who thinks the BRZ handles well doesn't understand handling. As one speechless poster said: the only way Subaru could get away with marketing these cars to John Q. Public is with traction and stability control.

My point exactly.