FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Kunzite

But what's so wrong in asking for "the validation of chassis comparisons by using similar tires across the board"? (nice, succinct description, switchlanez).
Of course listing the tires would be mandatory for every car (because you need to know what tires were used). And obviously it's not the same if you start changing e.g. the suspensions or pretty much anything else (one of fatoni's BS claim). But he can't, or better said he refuses to understand that people are asking for a very specific thing which is meant to reduce variability (grip differences due to tires), and not add to it (random car changes). So he's repeating the same BS strawman each time people are asking for this specific thing.
All because "our way" would make the GT 86 to good for his liking.

switchlanez: Chris Harris is something... very passionate, a lot of feeling, I like watching him.

i refuse to understand that because i consider the tire a part of the suspension. i believe changing the suspension is changing the suspension. you can enjoy myopic thought process but consider just because you are asking for tires "specifically" it doesnt mean that it isnt any less arbitrary.

on a lighter note, i do find it funny how you accuse me of making this strawman fallacy and then in the next sentence talk about how i think tires would make the frs too good for my liking

[ERZperformance]

Originally Posted by dwx

If I wanted a pure performance racecar I'd buy a used Porsche, not a 370Z or a FR-S. The 370Z is NOT a performance racecar you can't even get more than a degree of camber out of it stock...Same goes for the FR-S.

Well.. you have to understand even in the "pure performance" race car category, you still have sub-category as well. So basically in your opinion, if I can find a car that's faster then the Porsche, which there are many, the Porsche will get bump out of the "pure performance race car" category then?

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

If you're referring to the validation of chassis comparisons by using similar tires across the board, then you've clearly missed the countless discussions before these last 3 pages. Only this time numbers have been stated (impressive ones at that). But when you reduce the argument down to numbers, naysayers will say you fail to describe the dynamics as it reaches and leaves that corner and beg the question of suspension architecture and if it can power out of the corner through straights (since corners aren't the full picture) which has already been beaten dead. And round and round we go.

Anyway, was a conclusion reached in the last 3 pages? If not, I haven't missed anything.

Oh snap! Can't hide from that one... I did not read pages 1-57... BUSTED!

I think 2 conclusions were reached:

#1: general consensus is that for the sake of comparisons using equivalent tires makes sense

and

#2: fatoni disagrees with #1

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by termigni

I love the BRZ/FRS and all, but you can't compare to 370Z. BRZ is an entry level sports car where the 370Z is sitting on a level higher.

Extra! Extra! The Z is on a higher level...you heard it here first!

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

The problem is, they didn't release a version that can really show off straight from the factory.

The FR-S needs some sort of "sport package" or "track package" option with bubblegum tires, bigger brakes, no backseat, stiffer sways, etc.

Now THAT car would probably impress me -- and the FR-S can be that car (with further room to grow, I'm sure), but Toyota isn't selling it.

Even the priciest factory version of the FR-S needs assistance to really show what it can do. Out of the box, it leaves too much to be explored by an aggressive tuner. Put another way, it shouldn't improve that much from tires -- that means the car is set up with components that hold it back. Why would you sell a sports car set up like that?

I suppose that's cool from the standpoint of keeping costs on the initial purchase down, or the excitement of tuning, but a real bummer if you were hoping for a better starting point (i.e., I'd prefer to have bigger calipers on day one and just worry about pads and SS lines than all three).

I'd rather have some of the good stuff already on the car at time of purchase, but that's just me.

At least the LSD is stock.

Because changing tires, brake pads, fluids, and rotors is difficult... Not like you can't spend an afternoon in your garage doing that stuff or anything...

[Kunzite]

fatoni, you're the only one who would refer to putting on winter tires as "suspension tuning".
How do you call using a different (recommended, no special additives) brand of gas? Engine tuning? An oil change must be "major engine rebuild", and a sticker on the trunk, "installing aero parts".

My impression after reading your posts for a while is that you (and few others) arbitrarily set some limits about how good this car should be, and how much people must like it. Everything that goes over those limits is either "unfair" or "fanboy" stuff.
OTOH you posted a lot about changing other components yet quickly forgot about it in your last post:

Originally Posted by fatoni

my point is that when you change things, things are changed. its an arbitrary point to choose to be acceptable. stock v stock: dont change tires. mod v mod:why stop at tires? thats all im saying

- so where's the strawman?
The reasons why you want the same or similar tires but no other changes must have been explained for a hundred times.

P.S. I should forget about periodically checking for tire pressure and oil level from now on, since I'm not authorized to do suspension and engine work.

[YukiHachiRoku]

this is the super necro thread of the year, I swear!

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Kunzite

fatoni, you're the only one who would refer to putting on winter tires as "suspension tuning".
How do you call using a different (recommended, no special additives) brand of gas? Engine tuning? An oil change must be "major engine rebuild", and a sticker on the trunk, "installing aero parts".

My impression after reading your posts for a while is that you (and few others) arbitrarily set some limits about how good this car should be, and how much people must like it. Everything that goes over those limits is either "unfair" or "fanboy" stuff.
OTOH you posted a lot about changing other components yet quickly forgot about it in your last post:
- so where's the strawman?
The reasons why you want the same or similar tires but no other changes must have been explained for a hundred times.

P.S. I should forget about periodically checking for tire pressure and oil level from now on, since I'm not authorized to do suspension and engine work.

right there. there is the strawman. where did i say that?

youre clearly missing the point im trying to make and thats okay but when you act like im stupid because you dont understand them, i get frustrated. there is zero argument that you can make for swapping tires that you cant make for something else so why do people insist on the fact that tires are somehow special?

[Kunzite]

OK... there is zero argument in changing only the tires, if one specifically wants to see how the car performs with the same tires as the competition (but no other change). Yes, I understood this the first time and it makes as much sense as back then.

It would also seems you can't make the distinction between "mocking" and "strawman", but I really don't want to try to explain it to you.

[YukiHachiRoku]

Fair Lady Z people, why don't you relax. We all know the Z and GTR engineers in Japan have a rivalry, so leave your cock at the door. GTR wins, and Europeans are mad, so once again relax......

[driftartist]

Everyones mad and should stop.

[Turbowned]

FR-S vs. 370Z:

[Lonewolf]

Every night I revel in the sheer awesomeness of the Z and its mythic heritage. I masturbate furiously to photos of 300ZX's and 240's....mmmmm, so beautiful and perfect.

In fact, I don't even know what the hell I'm doing on this site...I can't fight this feeling anymore...I must buy a 370Z and experience god's chariot for myself...I just hope my head doesn't explode from the greatness.

I think I'm going to go out and get a tattoo of a VQ series motor on my back right now...and then laugh at all the pathetic drivers of Porsches and M3's, and proclaim my Z's superiority throughout the land...

[quik1987]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Every night I revel in the sheer awesomeness of the Z and its mythic heritage. I masturbate furiously to photos of 300ZX's and 240's....mmmmm, so beautiful and perfect.

In fact, I don't even know what the hell I'm doing on this site...I can't fight this feeling anymore...I must buy a 370Z and experience god's chariot for myself...I just hope my head doesn't explode from the greatness.

I think I'm going to go out and get a tattoo of a VQ series motor on my back right now...and then laugh at all the pathetic drivers of Porsches and M3's, and proclaim my Z's superiority throughout the land...