Cobb Accessport for BRZ/FRS

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

So if you add mods you literally need a tune to get any real gains from them. You would also be ensuring the mods haven't caused the car too run too rich or too lean, which is where the safety aspect of it comes in.

If you want us to prove all this to you, we will gladly do so

Alright, I don't think I got across what I meant. I'm sure you've tuned a good deal of stage 2 cars. Full exhaust of varying makes, maybe a drop in filter. And I'm sure you don't put these cars on the dyno and start from scratch every time. You have a base map you start with. How many changes would you make to such a base map? I suspect very, very few.

I didn't mean to imply that you can start removing cats and see big power gains without tuning. What I meant was a car upgraded in a typical upgrade path just won't see the value in a custom tune.

My WRX had a ported stock turbo, external wastegate, different boost control solenoid, an oddball exhaust, modified injectors and fuel rail, etc. There's no way I could have used an OTS map on that. There's obviously a place for custom tunes. A car with a couple of bolt ons just isn't it.

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by qoncept

Alright, I don't think I got across what I meant. I'm sure you've tuned a good deal of stage 2 cars. Full exhaust of varying makes, maybe a drop in filter. And I'm sure you don't put these cars on the dyno and start from scratch every time. You have a base map you start with. How many changes would you make to such a base map? I suspect very, very few.

I didn't mean to imply that you can start removing cats and see big power gains without tuning. What I meant was a car upgraded in a typical upgrade path just won't see the value in a custom tune.

My WRX had a ported stock turbo, external wastegate, different boost control solenoid, an oddball exhaust, modified injectors and fuel rail, etc. There's no way I could have used an OTS map on that. There's obviously a place for custom tunes. A car with a couple of bolt ons just isn't it.

Well, you're wrong. Flat out.

A LOT of time goes into a tune, every car is different, every intake, exhaust, front pipe, etc. is different. It takes a lot of time to make sure the car is running right, making power, driving smoothly, and within safe ranges.

Do we have maps and referecnes we use from previous tuning? Yes of course we do. But every single cars get's it own custom map, every parameter we change is logged and looked at to make sure it's right. We are not just throwing a stage 2 tune on a car, looking at one number and calling it a day.

Any car can benefit from a custom tune. You can use an OTS map and gain 6hp or get a custom tune and gain 17.

The route you take is your choice and it depends on your needs and your budget. Just make sure your educated on what you're buying.



-Tristan

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

Well, you're wrong. Flat out.

A LOT of time goes into a tune, every car is different, every intake, exhaust, front pipe, etc. is different. It takes a lot of time to make sure the car is running right, making power, driving smoothly, and within safe ranges.

Do we have maps and referecnes we use from previous tuning? Yes of course we do. But every single cars get's it own custom map, every parameter we change is logged and looked at to make sure it's right. We are not just throwing a stage 2 tune on a car, looking at one number and calling it a day.

Any car can benefit from a custom tune. You can use an OTS map and gain 6hp or get a custom tune and gain 17.

The route you take is your choice and it depends on your needs and your budget. Just make sure your educated on what you're buying.



-Tristan

Is this a claim you are willing to back up? Any independent tests from dynos that aren't adjusted to read higher than standard calibration?

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Is this a claim you are willing to back up? Any independent tests from dynos that aren't adjusted to read higher than standard calibration?

Yeah, we will.

Even if you want to play the conjectural math percentages game, and lets just say for arguments sake it's high by 2hp; 15hp is still a heck of a difference over 6.

Anyone can bring us a car with an OTS map, and we will tune it with a custom map and get better gains everywhere and better drivability. Guaranteed, any day of the week.

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

Yeah, we will.

Even if you want to play the conjectural math percentages game, and lets just say for arguments sake it's high by 2hp; 15hp is still a heck of a difference over 6.

Anyone can bring us a car with an OTS map, and we will tune it with a custom map and get better gains everywhere and better drivability. Guaranteed, any day of the week.

These are the kind of words that tend to come back in bite people in the rear

[bakerr6]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

Yeah, we will.

Even if you want to play the conjectural math percentages game, and lets just say for arguments sake it's high by 2hp; 15hp is still a heck of a difference over 6.

Anyone can bring us a car with an OTS map, and we will tune it with a custom map and get better gains everywhere and better drivability. Guaranteed, any day of the week.

I don't think these are really fair comparisons. Different elevations/intake temps, etc. will fluctuate dyno numbers, along with the dynos themselves. I do think having a custom tune has inherent benefits, but arguing about which one will do better on the dyno is irrelevant.

I think building and tuning a car for a set purpose is a better way to tackle the value of a custom tune. Changing various different parameters, such as rpm levels, various fuel trims throughout the rpm range to compensate for the driving style and needs of the owner to me would be more important than dyno numbers.

If that's all people care about, then you might as well get your car tuned by JV and let him tune your car to the limit. I just hope you have a fire extinguisher

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

These are the kind of words that tend to come back in bite people in the rear

Originally Posted by bakerr6

I don't think these are really fair comparisons. Different elevations/intake temps, etc. will fluctuate dyno numbers, along with the dynos themselves. I do think having a custom tune has inherent benefits, but arguing about which one will do better on the dyno is irrelevant.

I think building and tuning a car for a set purpose is a better way to tackle the value of a custom tune. Changing various different parameters, such as rpm levels, various fuel trims throughout the rpm range to compensate for the driving style and needs of the owner to me would be more important than dyno numbers.

If that's all people care about, then you might as well get your car tuned by JV and let him tune your car to the limit. I just hope you have a fire extinguisher

Ok...I didn't say that we will get the maximum amount of power needed to shred tires and we throw caution to the wind.

I actually said: It takes a lot of time to make sure the car is running right, making power, driving smoothly, and within safe ranges.

We tune cars for safe power, drivability, smoothness, oem like idle, torque sooner in the rev band, etc. etc. the list goes on. We also do custom build maps as you mention, we can raise rev limits for auto-x guys or adjust maps for specific boost control.

The best feedback in the world is when a customer tells you that the custom tune they had from a previous tuner is absolutely blown away by our new tune. Yes, that has happened. No I will not mention names.Again, if anyone doubts our ability or knowledge we will be glad to prove it to you. We aren't a "master tuner" by mistake.

Now, I am going to head out of the office and go get some dinner and hang out with some local Subaru yokels.

-Tristan

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

Well, you're wrong. Flat out.

A LOT of time goes into a tune, every car is different, every intake, exhaust, front pipe, etc. is different. It takes a lot of time to make sure the car is running right, making power, driving smoothly, and within safe ranges.

Do we have maps and referecnes we use from previous tuning? Yes of course we do. But every single cars get's it own custom map, every parameter we change is logged and looked at to make sure it's right. We are not just throwing a stage 2 tune on a car, looking at one number and calling it a day.

Any car can benefit from a custom tune. You can use an OTS map and gain 6hp or get a custom tune and gain 17.

The route you take is your choice and it depends on your needs and your budget. Just make sure your educated on what you're buying.

Peak HP #'s aren't very important to me. It ignores every other point of the power band and is trivially easy to cheat with smoothing anyway. I don't doubt that your tunes make more power, though.

I'd love to watch you tune a car but, alas, I'm over 4 hours from ANY tuner so it's not going to happen (Well, make that 2 now with ft86ss). You'd think 8 years after I started writing tuning software I'd have seen a pro do it by now.

[yuicebox]

@Circuit Motorsports

I would really like to see you all work towards custom tunes with the OFT. I think if you take the time to suggest things to Shiv that you want to see added, it WILL get done. Grassroots tuning starts with a slow ground swell.

I would be HAPPY to pay several hundred dollars to have Circuit Motorsports in Orlando to optimize my tune and I don't really see the benefit of sharing it. If it's individualized to each car, I don't even think others would truly benefit from it. And OBVIOUSLY, I wouldn't do it.

If you have the time, you should really consider making a list for Shiv.

I'm not going to participate in the argument that's taking place here. I think your claims of 6 vs 15 hp is an exaggeration, but I KNOW that there's merit to having a tune fine-tuned to your vehicle.

Instead of arguing over which is "better", we should be working together to ensure that everyone has access to quality tunes without being pidgeonholed into one alternative, such as ecutek. (Again, ecutek is great, I'm not talking shit, I just think options are good).

Respect -

Alex

[Malt]

Originally Posted by yuicebox

@Circuit Motorsports

I would really like to see you all work towards custom tunes with the OFT. I think if you take the time to suggest things to Shiv that you want to see added, it WILL get done. Grassroots tuning starts with a slow ground swell.

I would be HAPPY to pay several hundred dollars to have Circuit Motorsports in Orlando to optimize my tune and I don't really see the benefit of sharing it. If it's individualized to each car, I don't even think others would truly benefit from it. And OBVIOUSLY, I wouldn't do it.

If you have the time, you should really consider making a list for Shiv.

I'm not going to participate in the argument that's taking place here. I think your claims of 6 vs 15 hp is an exaggeration, but I KNOW that there's merit to having a tune fine-tuned to your vehicle.

Instead of arguing over which is "better", we should be working together to ensure that everyone has access to quality tunes without being pidgeonholed into one alternative, such as ecutek. (Again, ecutek is great, I'm not talking shit, I just think options are good).

Respect -

Alex

If the tune can't be locked, he's not going to tune your car with OFT. He's said on several occasions that is the reason he doesn't agree with the open source turning community.

[yuicebox]

Well if he changes his mind, I'd be glad to give him my money, and sign a contract saying that I won't share my tune, although I still maintain that I don't see the point of sharing a tune

[bakerr6]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

Ok...I didn't say that we will get the maximum amount of power needed to shred tires and we throw caution to the wind.

I actually said: It takes a lot of time to make sure the car is running right, making power, driving smoothly, and within safe ranges.

We tune cars for safe power, drivability, smoothness, oem like idle, torque sooner in the rev band, etc. etc. the list goes on. We also do custom build maps as you mention, we can raise rev limits for auto-x guys or adjust maps for specific boost control.

The best feedback in the world is when a customer tells you that the custom tune they had from a previous tuner is absolutely blown away by our new tune. Yes, that has happened. No I will not mention names.Again, if anyone doubts our ability or knowledge we will be glad to prove it to you. We aren't a "master tuner" by mistake.

Now, I am going to head out of the office and go get some dinner and hang out with some local Subaru yokels.

-Tristan

Yea I wasn't trying to throw fuel on any side of the fire, I just want people to realize there is a benefit of custom tuning that's far different than just better dyno numbers. I actually prefer to have my car custom tuned, even if it's not gaining power, so that I can make sure the driving characteristics match up with my driving style.

[Circuit Motorsports]

Originally Posted by qoncept

Peak HP #'s aren't very important to me. It ignores every other point of the power band and is trivially easy to cheat with smoothing anyway. I don't doubt that your tunes make more power, though.

I'd love to watch you tune a car but, alas, I'm over 4 hours from ANY tuner so it's not going to happen (Well, make that 2 now with ft86ss). You'd think 8 years after I started writing tuning software I'd have seen a pro do it by now.

Yup, we tune for more power everywhere. We are not a "peak hp" number tuner, that's not our goal when we are tuning a customers car.

See our post here and notice how power was increased everywhere in the rev range: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47586

Originally Posted by yuicebox

@Circuit Motorsports

I would really like to see you all work towards custom tunes with the OFT. I think if you take the time to suggest things to Shiv that you want to see added, it WILL get done. Grassroots tuning starts with a slow ground swell.

I would be HAPPY to pay several hundred dollars to have Circuit Motorsports in Orlando to optimize my tune and I don't really see the benefit of sharing it. If it's individualized to each car, I don't even think others would truly benefit from it. And OBVIOUSLY, I wouldn't do it.

If you have the time, you should really consider making a list for Shiv.

I'm not going to participate in the argument that's taking place here. I think your claims of 6 vs 15 hp is an exaggeration, but I KNOW that there's merit to having a tune fine-tuned to your vehicle.

Instead of arguing over which is "better", we should be working together to ensure that everyone has access to quality tunes without being pidgeonholed into one alternative, such as ecutek. (Again, ecutek is great, I'm not talking shit, I just think options are good).

Respect -

Alex

Thanks, we appreciate the fact that you would want to come to us for the tune!

As I said before, we are not married to one tuning solution, we just use what suits our needs and what we feel will provides the best overall tune and experience for our customers.

Right now, OFT is not one of them.

That may or may not change in the future though, we are always keeping an eye out for new tuning solutions, what works best etc.

As far as the numbers differences, we are just going of of the gains on the stage 1 map for the OFT and our custom stage 1 tune, see here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47586

Originally Posted by Malt

If the tune can't be locked, he's not going to tune your car with OFT. He's said on several occasions that is the reason he doesn't agree with the open source turning community.

False. We have nothing against the Opensource community, zero at all. Just because we don't choose to tune the 86 platform with opensource right now doesn't mean we don't think it's a good idea for some folks.

Having options is great for the community, there is no single right choice for everyone.




-Tristan

[Malt]

Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports

False. We have nothing against the Opensource community, zero at all. Just because we don't choose to tune the 86 platform with opensource right now doesn't mean we don't think it's a good idea for some folks.

Having options is great for the community, there is no single right choice for everyone.




-Tristan

That's sort of dancing around the issue isn't it? So tell me, if I came to you as a paying customer and OFT had all the features you think its needs minus the ability to lock a tune file, would you tune my car with OFT?

No? That was exactly my point.

I didn't mean to imply you have an issue with open source tuning, just simply that you think your tunes are akin to your intellectual property and the rights to it should be limited to the consumer. Its not that I necessarily agree or disagree with you, but everyone who probably actually considers a custom tune understands that its specific to their car and that sharing those tunes probably wouldn't be in other owners best interest. Regardless, I simply don't understand why custom tuners wouldn't want to unlock their tunes for the people that actually paid for them can have full access to what they paid for. People that are actually going to spend the money on a custom tune are going to get it done anyway instead of trying to get other peoples tunes.