Electric Supercharger - Market Speculation

[PowderfaceTr.]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

The... "I can't see it happening so therefore it's not possible comment."

Lol you guys seem so defensive. Is that the only thing that comes to your mind. Some guy long ago bashed your idea and now any person with clerical proof and critical thinking is labeled as a naysayer. Go ahead stick your head in to a hole, you can keep your tunnel vision pipe dreams. You remind me of those inventors with perpetual motion machines.

What has been done so far with electric turbo that proves useful is compound anti lag. That requires little energy pre spooling larger turbo shafts direct drive.

Please don't try to tell me it works. You have not implemented PID control to modulate pressure. The fundamental tipping stone for usability. Once you have a proper system integration we will then tackle the fact that NOs is still a better alternative given your short duty cycle.

[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

Lol you guys seem so defensive. Is that the only thing that comes to your mind. Some guy long ago bashed your idea and now any person with clerical proof and critical thinking is labeled as a naysayer. Go ahead stick your head in to a hole, you can keep your tunnel vision pipe dreams. You remind me of those inventors with perpetual motion machines.



What has been done so far with electric turbo that proves useful is compound anti lag. That requires little energy pre spooling larger turbo shafts direct drive.



Please don't try to tell me it works. You have not implemented PID control to modulate pressure. The fundamental tipping stone for usability. Once you have a proper system integration we will then tackle the fact that NOs is still a better alternative given your short duty cycle.

Actually proportional control will be implemented this weekend. And I'm not trying to be defensive I'm just surprised you are so set that it doesn't work.

You don't want me to explain so I won't try to waste my time trying to explain how the system works to you.

With the increases in battery technology and brushless motors. ESCs are primed to enter the market in greater numbers.

Also while you were spouting your numbers you were taking into account the energy gasoline has vs a lithium battery. What's interesting is that you never bothered speaking about the amount of energy that exhaust gases have vs lithium batteries. Thats what matters since we are talking about superchargers.

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

Lol you guys seem so defensive. Is that the only thing that comes to your mind. Some guy long ago bashed your idea and now any person with clerical proof and critical thinking is labeled as a naysayer. Go ahead stick your head in to a hole, you can keep your tunnel vision pipe dreams. You remind me of those inventors with perpetual motion machines.

What has been done so far with electric turbo that proves useful is compound anti lag. That requires little energy pre spooling larger turbo shafts direct drive.

Please don't try to tell me it works. You have not implemented PID control to modulate pressure. The fundamental tipping stone for usability. Once you have a proper system integration we will then tackle the fact that NOs is still a better alternative given your short duty cycle.

Fully mappable ESC control already exists in the Miata ESC kit. And it's only a couple weeks away for the FRS/BRZ ESC kit. Gone is the throttle/WOT switch. In its place is a user programmable computer that controls the ESC from 0-100% duty cycle as a function of RPM, applied throttle and torque request. The computer we use (and developed ourselves) is also capable of PID boost control in turbo applications. But that is a bit more crude than what we are doing with the ESC.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egRA7ycMPfY"]Electric Supercharger OpenFlash Procede Controlled - YouTube[/ame]

The end result is a FI kit that doesn't feel like an FI kit. Builds boost at any engine speed and the compressor spools from a standstill to 40k rpm in less about 0.25 seconds. There is no discernible lag or any power output nonlinearities with respect to pedal input.

[PowderfaceTr.]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

You mean you don't already know this? You've already done all the necessary analysis, surely this would be part of it.

Says who? So far the longest running Phantom ESC is something like 2 years old (maybe older). My kit is something like 15 months old. No signs of degradation in alternator performance whatsoever. From what I understand we're not even coming close to using the full capacity of our alternators. If years down the road an upgrade is needed, this is a relatively low cost item to make any ESC system tick, not a barrier.

Every reason then for both MFGs and the aftermarket to continue development. The biggest market could never be by definition a niche.

Who ever said that?

Saving this one for the quotebook. Taking this seriously, I have to ask... So "the Chinese military" couldn't reach their goal on something "long ago", that means no one else should develop any similar ideas? This HAS to be the long troll.

And I'm sure they're also responsible for every other improved technology in modern ESC developments (batteries, KERS, materials, etc)

First the issue is energy density, then it's the alternator, then it's the battery, then it's regen braking. You're reaching dude, and it shows.

Glad you have all the secrets. Since you do, I'm sure you'll have something to the market any day now. Better register as a vendor and start your thread right away.

It is lighter and more responsive not to mention more efficient to spool with waste gas.

You can hide from the reality all you want. Converting to crank HP to electricity through an AC alternator converting that to DC then Rectifying back to an AC motor is the Issue. What a big waste.
Its not how long your oversize alternator will last. its the 20 HP you lose in the conversion.

Try to engineer a modern electrical system without Chinese tech. Just try.

Aftermarket? Now thats the real waste of time. If your idea was viable its value would be billions of dollars in the rotax drone aircraft market. You think some machinist or auto mechanic is going to have the R&D of global military aviation?

Get out of your bubble, Bubble boy.

[PowderfaceTr.]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

What's interesting is that you never bothered speaking about the amount of energy that exhaust gases have vs lithium batteries. Thats what matters since we are talking about superchargers.

I love this point. You are spot on. I have not taken this into account. I would if batteries were not so heavy and difficult to keep charged.

I am merely being devils advocate and truly want this to become a reality. So bear with my constructive criticism.

[DAEMANO]

Doh! you do have a PID controller!.... erm... well forget about what I said about that whole energy density, super cap, PID thing.. you guys don't have a Fetzer valve, 3 in 1 gauze pads or 10 quarts of Prestone, no make that Quaker State... Meh, it's all about the ball bearings these days anyhow.

-PowderfaceTr.

[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

I love this point. You are spot on. I have not taken this into account. I would if batteries were not so heavy and difficult to keep charged.

I am merely being devils advocate and truly want this to become a reality. So bear with my constructive criticism.

It's cool. I'm actually enjoying the conversation. I'm not trying to be a **** (maybe you are) but surprised at how people are against esc's.

Not sure how close of a look at the phantom you have looked but you would see that the draw on the alternator and at the moments that there are draws are not horrible.

[PowderfaceTr.]

My posts are relevent to the fact that Energy density is the sole caveat of this system, no matter how efficient off the shelf fabrication products have become. Even how well integrated it is. You cant get it light enough. You try to get more PSI = bigger battery. try to get more capacity = bigger battery. Bigger anything will not make this economically feasible. Until Li Air cells are ready its not going to pay for itself. Competitors will undercut your profit every time with simpler more elegant solutions.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

My posts are relevent to the fact that Energy density is the sole caveat of this system, no matter how efficient off the shelf fabrication products have become. Even how well integrated it is. You cant get it light enough. You try to get more PSI = bigger battery. try to get more capacity = bigger battery. Bigger anything will not make this economically feasible. Until Li Air cells are ready its not going to pay for itself. Competitors will undercut your profit every time with simpler more elegant solutions.

Ok, well you keep posting about how this will never work. In the meanwhile, I'll keep posting pics, videos, and accounts of driving my Electrically Supercharged hallucination powered by Rob and Shiv's money losing businesses. And when people get in my car we'll mass hallucinate about hauling ass all over Southern California in something that's not actually working. No doubt, next year the Chinese Military in conjunction with Volvo will conduct a massive PCP dosing experiment where they make billions believe that they've added Electric Force Induction to their first production model. You will have to be the lone voice. The shining light that disrupts this evil plan, and brings us all back to reality. Thank you PowderfaceTr.

[Ultramaroon]

Well, I'm late to the party tonight. I wasted too much time with a cogent response only to discover Sojhinn and Shiv beat me to the punch.

Again, with respect to my earlier "incentive" comment, people have different reasons for choosing one aftermarket solution over another. The Camry or Odyssey driver are not the target market. No one is buying this thing because it's practical (yet.) A major selling point is that it's really cool. That's the main reason many of us drive and tinker with a vehicle like the 86.

Personally, I find it quite elegant. Strap it on and have fun. Want to take a road trip and get back to max fuel efficiency? A couple screws and poof, back to stock. Why the haterade? If I had the resources, I'd love to play with it.

edit for truth: I have no idea how leaving it installed without using it affects fuel efficiency. I'm guessing here.

[PowderfaceTr.]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Ok, well you keep posting about how this will never work. In the meanwhile, I'll keep posting pics, videos, and accounts of driving...

I dont know where it doesn't work was implied. The Bottom dollar is the only issue. Also Lithium is in very short supply and you want to waste a rare metal on some mediocre sub 4 G acceleration. Cool is subjective. You want to keep ranting how easy this thing is to bolt on and go with show off to your friends like some roller coaster ride. Such a low budget toy only really disappoints the poor people who have to slave in the neodyneum and litium mines.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

I dont know where it doesn't work was implied. The Bottom dollar is the only issue. Also Lithium is in very short supply and you want to waste a rare metal on some mediocre sub 4 G acceleration. Cool is subjective. You want to keep ranting how easy this thing is to bolt on and go with show off to your friends like some roller coaster ride. Such a low budget toy only really disappoints the poor people who have to slave in the neodyneum and litium mines.

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

Please don't try to tell me it works. You have not implemented PID control to modulate pressure. The fundamental tipping stone for usability. Once you have a proper system integration we will then tackle the fact that NOs is still a better alternative given your short duty cycle.

Also, I love the appeal about "slave labor not being worth it for sub 4G acceleration". So I guess slave labor would be all right if my ESC could pull more Gs right brah? XD

[Target70]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

You can hide from the reality all you want. Converting to crank HP to electricity through an AC alternator converting that to DC then Rectifying back to an AC motor is the Issue. What a big waste.
Its not how long your oversize alternator will last. its the 20 HP you lose in the conversion.

It's not efficient, I'll give you that. Processing gas into mechanical energy, into electricity for storage, then back into mechanical energy, loosing energy at every step. However efficiency or even energy density do not tell the whole story. Look at E85 on our platform. E85 has less energy density than regular gas but translates to more hp output. As long as you can find a way to apply your idea in a situation which maximizes the benefits and minimizes the drawbacks, it will be up to others to determine if they value the exchange. As for the alternator, It only requires any real output when the batteries are low, AND when you are not demanding large amounts of power, so the loss of power is never felt, and according to reports of it's users, the inefficiency hasn't added up to even 1 fewer mpg. Chances you are just tapping into wasted engine output at idle or while cruising. Everything has it's own drawbacks, It's just a question of what you value more. Larger engines use more gas, superchargers require belt maintenance and oiling, turbos require more complicated exhaust setups, oil circulation, and sometimes water cooling + expensive thermal shielding to protect adjacent systems from thermal damage. And that's not even considering the added costs, complexity, and weight of modern control modules, actuators, valves and piping for blowoff valves wastegates, and intercoolers. In place of these things the Phantom has batteries. It can however provide what up to this point nothing else has. Which is instant low end power with practically no danger to the engine in the event of system failure, and no special refiling requirements or costs. Nitrous fails two out of three. Yet just because I don't see any factory car come equipped with a nos fogger doesn't mean it doesn't work or doesn't provide benefits which it's users value above it's drawbacks.

So in real world terms, is there any market for a factory application? A low cost, zero maintenance(besides batteries that could last 5+ years), low complexity, low risk, moderate power adder, with characteristics that emulate that of a larger engine but only when more power is required, in an era with rising emissions standards. If this technology existed in the 90's I don't doubt a 3 cylinder Kia would have came from the factory with one as a sport option.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

Such a low budget toy only really disappoints the poor people who have to slave in the neodyneum and litium mines.

wow