2014 86CUP presented by Winmax, rules and schedule

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by solidONE

RS3 is plenty of tire to exploit big brakes... Decreasing front end roll thus better contact patch throughout the turn will allow you to maintain more speed during a corner. Same idea, in that sense, as springs. I motion to lift the .5 pts on lowering springs. Or add points to sways and BBKs.

You're basically talking about what I'm talking about:

Once you get tires, all the other "free mods" are for you to exploit.

If you have shitty tires but great suspension, you're limited by how much you can get out of those tires.

A prime example is coilovers with stock tires. You'll overload the tires and take away some of the inherent roll + "soft tires" that was designed from the factory. Just because you're running a sticky tire like RS3 doesn't mean you can get the most out of it, but once you make that jump the points are penalized as such.

-alex

[solidONE]

The last I checked there is no penalties on 140tw tire in stock size. Namely rs3 level tires. So I don't know what you are talking about, if you agree with me there. How do BBK not give any advantage? How does sway bar not give any advantage. And why lowering spring is .5 pts but the sways and bbk is free. Please explain to me. Thanks.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by retrosmiths

Off-recent-topic: @CSG Mike, how does one acquire data logs like this for the track event?

I have the Torque app and it does log some data, but I don't know how to export them to a video overlay. Suggestions?

Overlay software can do it for you automatically. Try "RaceChrono2", but there are a lot of options.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

So your saying shorter stopping distance and less brake fade will not yield faster consistent laps? You probably went to big on the rear bar causing it to be snappy. What was your setup?

It doesn't make you faster. It prevents performance degredation.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by YodrOne

Didn't read the whole thread so might be missing it, but when is this coming to the east coast?! I have at least five excellent tracks within a 4hr radius...

When you're willing to organize one; NorCal has a series started based on this ruleset!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

The last I checked there is no penalties on 140tw tire in stock size. Namely rs3 level tires. So I don't know what you are talking about, if you agree with me there. How do BBK not give any advantage? How does sway bar not give any advantage. And why lowering spring is .5 pts but the sways and bbk is free. Please explain to me. Thanks.

Sways change balance. Springs lower CG and alter geometry. Two whole different things.

Roll stiffness is moot.

[solidONE]

It's hardly a moot point. I'm all for 'free' modifications to exploit, but when you penalize something as common a modification as lowering spring with .5 yet no point penalties added to something as obvious a performance adder as bbk and sways(particularly the BBK) is where I will have to disagree. Without even looking I can confidently say that if you looked in any other rule book with any other organization you will find that similar or the same amount of points are assessed to sways vs. lowering springs. Even more points are assessed for BBK if not disallowed altogether in certain classes. The points are hardly moot.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by solidONE

It's hardly a moot point. I'm all for 'free' modifications to exploit, but when you penalize something as common a modification as lowering spring with .5 yet no point penalties added to something as obvious a performance adder as bbk and sways(particularly the BBK) is where I will have to disagree. Without even looking I can confidently say that if you looked in any other rule book with any other organization you will find that similar or the same amount of points are assessed to sways vs. lowering springs. Even more points are assessed for BBK if not disallowed altogether in certain classes. The points are hardly moot.

Here's how I see it (Mike can provide his own views on the matter):

- The points system is based on a stock car running a specific track, and how much faster each mod can make you.
- Brakes, big brakes or aggressive compounds or whatnot, are meant to be of the mindset that they allow you to increase braking power. However, this is severely limited by the available mechanical traction on the car (tire compound/grip, treadwear rating, section width, suspension, etc etc) as well as aerodynamic traction on the car (front/rear splitters, wings, and other aero enhancements). Thus, a BBK or track-only compounds are only as good as the tires the car runs on.
- Some tires are more aggressive than what the treadwear rating suggests. Unfortunately the RS3 is one of these tires. Unless there's a better rating system available, treadwear rating is the only way to comfortably gauge tire performance.
- Sway bars tie in to the overall suspension setup, but doesn't have a big of an impact on lap times as do springs, shocks, or coilover systems. A good read on sway bars here.

In my car, with bigger sway bars I'll end up overloading the tires on steady-state corners. It's not all that good for my purpose and won't make me any faster.

If you have any evidence of lap time improvements with only a sway bar or BBK mod on the FRS/BRZ, feel free to document it and give us some supporting information. I know you referenced other series, but they have justification for what they are doing with specific parts classed the way they are, and we are asking for this justification.

TL;DR -- if you have a good reason for parts to be reclassed points-wise, give us evidence that isn't just "these other series do it too".

-alex

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

It's hardly a moot point. I'm all for 'free' modifications to exploit, but when you penalize something as common a modification as lowering spring with .5 yet no point penalties added to something as obvious a performance adder as bbk and sways(particularly the BBK) is where I will have to disagree. Without even looking I can confidently say that if you looked in any other rule book with any other organization you will find that similar or the same amount of points are assessed to sways vs. lowering springs. Even more points are assessed for BBK if not disallowed altogether in certain classes. The points are hardly moot.

We're neither running slicks, nor are we stripping cars for weight. Your points are moot. If you're so concerned with unfair advantage, you're more than welcome to exploit the perceived weaknesses and provide data refuting the current system.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We're neither running slicks, nor are we stripping cars for weight. Your points are moot. If you're so concerned with unfair advantage, you're more than welcome to exploit the perceived weaknesses and provide data refuting the current system.

My concern is not about unfair advantage as anyone is free to exploit the rules including myself. My issue is that I spent a lot if money to get my car ready to qualify for stock class in 2013 and now I'm stuck with parts that I cannot use to do the same this year because of all the rule changes. Whatever... I hope someone else will chime in on the issue. I know posting test results will not do squat. I will have to play by your rules, however I do not agree with them.

[solidONE]

What's the point of this 'discussion of rules' when you guys are just going to take Mike's word as gospel truth? And everyone else's opinions are just 'moot'? Whatever happened to robispec anyhow?

Here's a couple of articles from Grassroots that somebody who also agrees with my point sent me: I already know you guys will dissmiss this cause it is not chassis specific. But hey... the same physics is not applicable to this 86......

Sways yielded .52 seconds improvement and dampers and springs yielded .056 seconds improvement.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/dialed-in/

BBK with street pads in this example stopped from 120MPH in 441 feet vs. 477 feet with the still beefy stock set up.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/halt/

[ImperiousRex]

Originally Posted by solidONE

What's the point of this 'discussion of rules' when you guys are just going to take Mike's word as gospel truth? And everyone else's opinions are just 'moot'? Whatever happened to robispec anyhow?

Here's a couple of articles from Grassroots that somebody who also agrees with my point sent me: I already know you guys will dissmiss this cause it is not chassis specific. But hey... the same physics is not applicable to this 86......

Sways yielded .52 seconds improvement and dampers and springs yielded .056 seconds improvement.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/dialed-in/

BBK with street pads in this example stopped from 120MPH in 441 feet vs. 477 feet with the still beefy stock set up.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/halt/

Neither of these examples is very conclusive. The first article is a comparison of parts as more and more are added into the equation and therefore the "gains" are not conclusive evidence of any one part's contribution other than maybe the first one installed.

And in the 2nd article, they changed brake pads along with the BBK and based on my own experience with my BBK, I would argue the pad was more of the deciding factor in the stopping distances than the BBK was.

Regardless, in the case of the 86 Cup, Mike has spent extensive time not only in his own car through multiple changes, but he has also driven many other FRS/BRZ's to come to the conclusion of the current ruleset. Are they perfect? Probably not. But I would argue they are much better than what we had last year. Mike already explained the reasoning for the BBK ruling on the first page and I would agree with that logic.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is that while we certainly invite discussion of the rules, please keep in mind that the classing in this series is really more for people to compare their driving ability based on a threshold of mods to others with a similar level of setup. And we are finding that driver mod >>>> car mods right now. We would love for the series to become a hardcore super tight competition series but the platform is still very young and the experience level with this platform is still relatively low. The rules this year were aimed more towards allowing flexibility in mods rather than the "if you have this part you're in this class" type of classing we had last year where the thresholds of variance were much greater than they are now.

So with that in mind, I understand you're frustrated that you're not in Stock class within the rules as is - but why not just try out Street class? IMO it's better to be in a class where you have room to grow without getting bumped out of class than it is to be at the top of a class where even thinking of modding anything else might get you bumped out.

If you'd like to continue your campaign for point changes for some of the parts, I would suggest that your participation would speak much louder than speculation. After all we're running a Time Trial series, not a Theoretical Time Trial series

P.S. Robispec was of course asked to participate in helping to lead the 86 Cup again but unfortunately he has many plates spinning this year and was unable to do so. However, Mike and I still keep in contact with him from time to time and I'm sure if he had any objections to the rules for this year, he'd let us know (and we'd most likely listen).

[CSG Mike]

@solidONE: stop looking at the rules from your point of view, and look at it from a larger perspective. YOUR springs may not be worth 0.5 seconds, but some springs are.

Most BBK increase rotational intertia. Do we want to give them negative points for that performance detriment?

Sways add weight. Most aftermarket springs are lighter than OEM. Sways don't affect CG. Springs do. There are more factors than just what you're looking at.


Rules will always be changing... don't be afraid of change. Provide evidence that a particular mod is misappropriately classed, and it will be changed.

[juliog]

Originally Posted by solidONE

BBK with street pads in this example stopped from 120MPH in 441 feet vs. 477 feet with the still beefy stock set up.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/halt/

I won't argue that having a BBK is better, but the stopping distance gains from that review sound too good (7.5%). Perhaps the stock pads weren't in great condition... would have liked to see them testing just pads with stock calipers and rotors.

Anyway, here's another (also sponsored!) comparison:
http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm

Scroll down all the way to the bottom. Stopping distance gains are in the 2-3% range compared to stock 350Z pads, and just about 1-2% for the more aggressive (but still street) pads of the 350Z Track model. Also take into account that on the track, you never get to a full stop, so real gains will be even less than in those 100-0 tests.

Tires are still the limiting factor, the power of the brakes becomes moot the moment you are about to lock them up, which happens quickly.