Is the BRZ doomed?!?!

[Brzetto]

The truth is in the asterisks.

Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ The chassis that was such a revelation in 2013 is still squirming under these Japanese twins, but its brilliance so blinded us that it took a year to notice that almost every other aspect is only average or worse. Still, keep either one in the garage for track days and canyon-road blasts.


** We're not getting paid enough to say anything good about this car anymore.

[SirBrass]

Exactly.

And no subaru won't be dropping the FA20DIT into the BRZ. What you see as only plumbing changes they'll see as unnecessary expense seeing as how the car is selling so well as is.

Just b/c we want FI doesn't mean Subaru thinks it'll help their bottom line.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[go2brz]

Conclusion, I wouldn't say it is the end for the BRZ. After the contract is served, the car is owned by Subaru, and the engine is owned by Toyota. Subaru can choose to keep the car, or kill it. Toyota can choose to keep the engine or kill it. Tada San is developing his own....so what may happen could be

I have neither read or heard anything about Subaru giving up thier engine, to get DI. and it would not be an equitable deal for Subaru. Toyota asked for a joint sports car and according to all printed reports, they jumped at the last design plan that Subaru developed and Toyota helped them greatly in bringing it to fruition. The DI was Toyota's contribution to the engine which helped make a 2.0L put out 200HP. I doubt very seriously that you will find a Subaru boxer engine in any future Toyota that is not made in a Subaru factory. Toyota only owns a small portion of the Fuji Heavy industries. Tada can kill the engine for any Toyota car, but he cannot "kill" this engine for Subaru as it is their proprietary design simply with another company's DI technology. Saying that Toyota owns this engine, is like saying that Volkswagen owns the Porsche boxer engine and can put it in any car they want (That will never happen even though VW controls Porsche). Toyota got this car with a minimum of expenditure compared to most startup sports car projects. Toyota controls Subaru no more than GM did before them. But GM's plan to increase Subaru production was simply to re-badge a couple models and make them SAAB's in name only. Subaru "killed" that deal with GM (bought the stock back) because of their incompetence, and then the Japanese government asked Toyota to replace that investment. It was a smart move for Toyota, but Subaru and Toyota are miles apart from being "one big company" Toyota has as much money involved in Tesla, but they are not "one" company. They simply share some technology which for Toyota is high tech lithium battery technology, as they invested heavily in Nickel Cad for their hybrid cars. (Which are fast becoming obsolete for Hybrids) Tesla gets help in areas that they are weak in, like production quality along with R&D sharing. Plus having Toyota as an investor made them seem as a "safer" bet for investors, not as a threat to Tesla independence as a company. Toyota now has the means to develop thier Lithium-Ion battery program at a faster rate than before the investment.

I cannot see Toyota/Scion FT-86/FRS with any different engine than the BRZ will have. The car is designed for a boxer engine. The car was made from the beginning to be able to be profitable at lower production than most models, by both companies selling them. They have no plans or need to produce more than 100,00 units for the entire world in one year. They are already profitable somewhat (certainly not a loss) and they have not yet reached peak production planned.

If Toyota wants to add another sports car that offers more, it will be hard to sell it as a Scion as the price will be out of the "Scion" target pricing. Let them make a new Supra in the 50-60K range like the new Alfa 4C or the Porsche Cayman. It should not threaten the need for Scion to have an affordable sports car like the FRS.

This car has the potential to be a long term success even if sold at low numbers, much like the Miata has done for quite a while. I see no reason for this car to go away anytime soon even if it does end up being only a Subaru. And the new BRZ based Sport Crossover concept (A BRZ "shooting brake) just shown in Tokyo last week, could be a very nice complement to the BRZ that will help Subaru to maintain the factory as profitable if Toyota does pull out. And I really cannot see any reason for them to want to pull out unless they are pulling the plug on Scion and would rather have a higher priced sports car for the Toyota brand. But to have a big engine it will be taxed heavily in all major markets for the car as most nations have an escalating tax on cars as the engine gets larger than a 2.0 liter raising the sticker price quite a lot. Just price a 3.5 liter in Europe or Japan versus the same car with a 2.0L engine. Quite a lot to pay, so most cars are 2.0L or less. That is one of the great selling points of this car worldwide for Toyota, and to a lesser degree Subaru as well (Subaru's world market is many less countries than Toyota). It has no extra taxes than any economy sedan or coupe in these countries. So the 2.0L is here to stay. Their are some countries where a 2.5 would be an affordable upgrade, so something like having two engine choices could be a future possiblity.

Seems like this car is far from "doomed" Is it perfect? No. But for the money it is the most overall fun car to drive on the market today as just about every owner on this forum has confirmed. As of right now you have to spend twice to three times a much to get a Cayman with just a few to several more options. The BRZ/FRS actually hits it's cost and demographics target very well. Yes, they can add a higher end version with more power and and a true STI/TRD perfromance upgrade. But the base 2.0L version at a low base price will still have to be available or this car will have trouble selling in the numbers they have planned to make it profitable. If the WRX/STI was not based on the Impreza platform, it would not exist. This is a marriage of convenience that if managed properly can be a great thing for both companies for years to come.

[Captain Snooze]

All car models are "doomed". That is, they all have a shelf life. New models are always in the pipe line.

[Coolhand]

Either all the cars mags were paid off to like to car last year (meaning it deserved NONE of the awards it received) or after spending time with the car, its shortcomings were more revealed and it didn't make multiple cuts (including Top Gear mag ect), most of which seem to have given the BRZ slot to the new (excellent) Ford Fiesta ST.

Gee I wonder what it could be. . . .

[Darkrune]

Fiesta St....wtf gross.

[Captain Snooze]

Your post is so full of fallacious holes it's not funny.
1/ Either all the cars mags were paid off to like to car last year (meaning it deserved NONE of the awards it received) or after spending time with the car...."
This is an example of the either/or, black or white fallacy. You post 2 different examples as if these were the only possibilities available. That is, there is no possibility that some reviewers were paid off and some short comings were noted after a time.
2/ "Either all the cars mags were paid off". This reads like an emotive statement with out content. Do you have any evidence to support this? Stating "They won an award because they were paid off" is not evidence.
3/ " and it didn't make multiple cuts (including Top Gear mag ect)". That's funny because "FR-S / BRZ Makes Top Gear’s 50 Greatest Cars of Past 20 Years List" http://www.ft86club.com/?p=3017, http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/20y...cars-mag-promo

[go2brz]

Everything in life is "doomed" if you look at it that way. I think this was about being "doomed" very short into it's production cycle. I believe this car has the possibility to last longer than most, especially in it's class. Look how long the Eclipse held on and it was not that great of a sports car. But again, I think the Miata is the best example of how long this car can last. Nothing in life is certain though.

[regal]

Originally Posted by go2brz

Everything in life is "doomed" if you look at it that way. I think this was about being "doomed" very short into it's production cycle. I believe this car has the possibility to last longer than most, especially in it's class. Look how long the Eclipse held on and it was not that great of a sports car. But again, I think the Miata is the best example of how long this car can last. Nothing in life is certain though.

Subaru doesn't have the capital to go developing new models very often. Yes they can sell the AWD 400+lbs Turbo WRX for the same price as the BRZ, and they needed Toyota 4 dev dollors to build the thing.


Subaru's aren't typically "domed", their model line-up is basically the same as it thas been since 2000 in a broad sense.


I see Subaru holding on to the BRZ much more than Toyota holding on to Scion. They wouldn't or couldn't offer the FA20 if/when the partnership dissolves. The FA20DIT is on the shelf and would require just a few engineering changes, impact to MSRP would be minimal.


If you break value-added (true) value part by part between the WRX and the BRZ, the WRX has at least $10k more retail invested. In other words in a few years when the dev costs are paid off the BRZ will be very profitable for Subaru even at low volume. Worth fighting for.


The BRZ with an FA20DIT could keep the platform as alive at least longer than Scions FA20 4-door version.




Subaru is holding all the cards will this car and when Toyota goes back to 4-doors and the BMW/Supra joint venture Subaru will go for the kill. Doubt Toyota will care the GT86 is a vey small percentage of their sales.


They better move fast as the little turbo S Nissan is developing quickly.

[lionbacker54]

No way is the brz doomed. Subaru's overall sales are way up, and the brz is credited with at least part if it by enhancing the company's stodgy reputation. Even if the brz itself ends up being in the red, it will have value to the company as a "loss leader"

[Brzetto]

The BRZ isn't doomed, the FRS is. It's not the car's fault it's Scions, their so called promotion strategy is a joke, like those youtube videos they have with various people talking about their lives while driving the car for about 10 seconds. You get a brief shot of the FRS then a long and drawn out story that nobody wants to hear. Case in point, this bullshit.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAmJIWKFZ-w"]The Scion FR-S in Make Every Second Count: Life, Camera, Action - A Film by Doug Pray - YouTube[/ame]

[cjsporl1996]

Originally Posted by ashtray

The way I see it, Subaru and Toyota worked together on this car, but I believe each company gave in to compromises it wouldn't have otherwise taken.

The most glaring is the engine. Toyota needed the boxer engine to keep the engine as low as possible. Remember pedestrian safety laws - that hood line can't go that low with an I4. Subaru likely didnt want the D4S. Before the twins came out, Toyota said "about 200hp", and Subaru said "under 300". And 200 IS under 300. But reading between the lines and some other quotes of power from Subaru lead interviews - Subaru's got a mill ready to drop in with 280hp. I bet Toyota said "no", and is making them shelf that motor until they're ready to split the twins apart and give each company a green light to develop as they wish.

Think of the relationship kinda like the Firebird and Camaro were. (Each had a basic structure that was defined and then Pontiac and Chevy made it however they wanted, including different engines, until the 90's.)


Think of this: a 280hp BRZ STi. For $35k. What would SCION have to offer to compete with that in the States? Globally, the Toyota brand could probably handle a GT86 with a 25% price bump, but not Scion. And at those levels of power, lightweight, and price - it could compete with the new Supra Toyota is planning. Subaru's not part of that project. Toyota has to keep the twins under control until it has all 3 RWD sports cars in its line up.

I predict Toyota and Subaru split paths with the twins for either a mid model or second gen.

Toyota only owns around 37% (less?) of Subaru. They don't control them.

Actually the firebird and the camaro used different engines till 1982 when GM demanded that all the divisions went with the cooperate engine. They both has the option for the 305 and 350 and the firebird actually had more Features and it was more our-dynamic for that generation.

[Coolhand]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Your post is so full of fallacious holes it's not funny.
1/ Either all the cars mags were paid off to like to car last year (meaning it deserved NONE of the awards it received) or after spending time with the car...."
This is an example of the either/or, black or white fallacy. You post 2 different examples as if these were the only possibilities available. That is, there is no possibility that some reviewers were paid off and some short comings were noted after a time.
2/ "Either all the cars mags were paid off". This reads like an emotive statement with out content. Do you have any evidence to support this? Stating "They won an award because they were paid off" is not evidence.
3/ " and it didn't make multiple cuts (including Top Gear mag ect)". That's funny because "FR-S / BRZ Makes Top Gear’s 50 Greatest Cars of Past 20 Years List" http://www.ft86club.com/?p=3017, http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/20y...cars-mag-promo

Its HILARIOUS that you take the idea that the major car mags are paid off as serious, yet unironically want to debate an obviously satiric response with a few tools cribbed from a Cracked article on logic.

This forum is the best sometimes. . .

[Ralph Spoilsport]

As long as Subaru needs better CAFE numbers and NA BRZs are selling well, there will be a NA BRZ.

C&D has always had a case of automotive ADHD. They are correct when they say that the chassis is brilliant and the rest of the car is (mechanically, electronically) very average. This was completely obvious to me in the space of a 15 minute walk around / sit in in the show room and a 30 minute backroads + freeway interchange solo blast in a well broken in (30k miles) used MT6 that happened to be on the lot. I loved it, so I bought it.

Edit: And the car gets just amazing love from complete strangers, all the time. Ages 8 - 80.

I'm really glad I'm not trying to make ad revenue and circulation numbers at C&D....