FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[ae86yea]

Originally Posted by phm14

I'm not reading this whole thread, but I have test driven a 370Z. I owned two 280Zs back in the day and loved the car, so I really wanted to like the 370. While it felt solid and fast, I wouldn't call it a "pure" sports car. Although it didn't seem like it weighed 3800lbs., road feel was very muted. Early on, there were cases of the cars overheating and going into "limp" mode on track. I'd guess that's been fixed by now, but 3800 lbs is too heavy for serious track work. That kind of weight is very hard on tires and brakes. The 86 has a laundry list of advantages in my book: track performance, mpg, weight, cargo/seating capacity, visibility, tire/brake consumption, insurance cost, cockpit, styling, price etc. Can't find any crash test ratings on the 370 to compare to the 5 star rating of the 86, so you can probably add that as well.

You added nearly 600 lbs to the actual weight of the Z lol.

[crazyyankeefan]

Originally Posted by phm14

I'm not reading this whole thread, but I have test driven a 370Z. I owned two 280Zs back in the day and loved the car, so I really wanted to like the 370. While it felt solid and fast, I wouldn't call it a "pure" sports car. Although it didn't seem like it weighed 3800lbs., road feel was very muted. Early on, there were cases of the cars overheating and going into "limp" mode on track. I'd guess that's been fixed by now, but 3800 lbs is too heavy for serious track work. That kind of weight is very hard on tires and brakes. The 86 has a laundry list of advantages in my book: track performance, mpg, weight, cargo/seating capacity, visibility, tire/brake consumption, insurance cost, cockpit, styling, price etc. Can't find any crash test ratings on the 370 to compare to the 5 star rating of the 86, so you can probably add that as well.

Advantage in track performance? what kinda pot are you smoking? mpg, cabin room...i give you those, styling is really a judgement call depending on each person. The weight and price argument is just unreasonable. Most of the 86 fans keep bragging about light weight but for the power this car offers, the weight is actually too much, not to mention it fails miserably in power-to-weight ratio. As for price, the car is not that cheap considering what you're getting. Sure it's cheaper than the Z, but did you take the engine and interior build quality into consideration?

[phm14]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

Advantage in track performance? what kinda pot are you smoking? mpg, cabin room...i give you those, styling is really a judgement call depending on each person. The weight and price argument is just unreasonable. Most of the 86 fans keep bragging about light weight but for the power this car offers, the weight is actually too much, not to mention it fails miserably in power-to-weight ratio. As for price, the car is not that cheap considering what you're getting. Sure it's cheaper than the Z, but did you take the engine and interior build quality into consideration?

You must have missed the "in my book" part. Try reading it twice if you need to. Doesn't sound like you've spent too much time on a road course. If you want to constantly burn through tires and brakes (and overheat?), knock yourself out junior.

[phm14]

Originally Posted by ae86yea

You added nearly 600 lbs to the actual weight of the Z lol.

I'm going from what I recall were factory specs. 3200 lbs. is still too heavy for regular track work, IMO.

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by phm14

IAlthough it didn't seem like it weighed 3800lbs.

It doesn't. It weighs between 3200 and 3300 depending on the options.

While it wouldn't hurt for the 370Z to be 200 lbs lighter, it has a very good power to weight and torque to weight ratio out of the box.

The 350Z was often panned for poor handling, but not the 370Z. At worst it's not as nimble as the FR-S, but it's hardly a clumsy car.

On that note: What's the average slalom times for the Z vs the FR-S? 60-0 braking? Skidpad?

EDIT: Well, the Z did better than I expected and the FR-S/ BRZ way worse, at least from what data I could fine.

Mean 370Z coupe skidpad g's = 0.965
Mean 370Z coupe Slalom mph = 70.53

Mean FR-S/BRZ skidpad g's = 0.88
Mean FR-S/BRZ slalom mph (note: only 2 data points) = 68.2

Didn't bother gathering braking data, but looked like around 110' for the Z and 120' for the FR-S/BRZ.

Good thing it's not about the numbers... er... any numbers.

Data for 370Z from:

http://www.insideline.com/nissan/370...ssan-370z.html

http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/370z/2010/road-test1.html

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/ca...an_370z_page_3

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...t/viewall.html

http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/370z/2010/road-test1.html

http://www.insideline.com/nissan/370...-bmw-135i.html


Data for FR-S/BRZ from:

http://www.insideline.com/scion/fr-s...full-test.html

http://www.insideline.com/subaru/brz...and-video.html

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...t/viewall.html

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...t/viewall.html

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by phm14

I'm going from what I recall were factory specs. 3200 lbs. is still too heavy for regular track work, IMO.

thats why the 458, gtr, aventador, z06, ford gt and many others are such slouches out on a road course

[Ric]

well I stopped by the Subi dealer today, I wanted to see and sit in the BRZ, my other car Im looking into is the G37.
Well lets just say the BRZ is, a $26K car, lol IMHO it felt cheap, lots of cheap plastic, the sheetmetal seemed very thin, just not was I was excepting from a "sportscar"
They only had the one, so no test drive, and Im not, going to buy a car, without test driving it, period.
If I had an extra 20grand, Id might buy one, Im betting these are a BLAST to buzz around town, may be even play on the track.
The salesman did tell me they are only making 3000 this year, and they have 7 in route, out of the 7, 2 are sold, and I think he said 4 have a deposit on them, leaving something like 2 or so for sale, so I pretty much left, lol

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Ric

well I stopped by the Subi dealer today, I wanted to see and sit in the BRZ, my other car Im looking into is the G37.
Well lets just say the BRZ is, a $26K car, lol IMHO it felt cheap, lots of cheap plastic, the sheetmetal seemed very thin, just not was I was excepting from a "sportscar"
They only had the one, so no test drive, and Im not, going to buy a car, without test driving it, period.
If I had an extra 20grand, Id might buy one, Im betting these are a BLAST to buzz around town, may be even play on the track.
The salesman did tell me they are only making 3000 this year, and they have 7 in route, out of the 7, 2 are sold, and I think he said 4 have a deposit on them, leaving something like 2 or so for sale, so I pretty much left, lol

i feel like you should look up the definition of sportscar. also, jump into an elise, that should put things in perspective

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

It weighs between 3200 and 3300 depending on the options.

Never seen an actual curb weight under 3300. Have seen measured curb weights of 3355 (M/T) and 3360 (Car and Driver).
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...t/viewall.html
3355 lb.

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...ro-vehicle.pdf
3360 lb.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...370z-road-test
>>the car is only 33 pounds heavier than the 350Z we tested in June of ’07<<

The 370Z was supposed to be a lighter-weight car than the 350Z. It was not and is not

While it wouldn't hurt for the 370Z to be 200 lbs lighter, it has a very good power to weight and torque to weight ratio out of the box.

Power/weight = very important. Torque/weight = practically meaningless. A 287hp 350Z has ~12.5 lb-ft per pound of car, S2000 more like 17.5 lb-ft per pound, not even close! But they're approximately equivalent in performance, because they have similar power/weight.

POWER is what tells you how much thrust you're getting at the drive tire contact patches. Engine torque by itself tells you nothing.

If you're making, say, 250hp at 60mph, that's 1562 lb at the wheels (minus losses), whether you're making that 250hp with 250 lb-ft at 5252rpm or with 125 lb-ft at 10,504rpm.

Mean 370Z coupe skidpad g's = 0.965
Mean 370Z coupe Slalom mph = 70.53

Mean FR-S/BRZ skidpad g's = 0.88
Mean FR-S/BRZ slalom mph (note: only 2 data points) = 68.2

Didn't bother gathering braking data, but looked like around 110' for the Z and 120' for the FR-S/BRZ.

Those are all measures of tire performance as much as car performance. Would be interesting to see how the cars compare on the same make/model of rubber.

[phm14]

Originally Posted by justaquestion

Lol @ making up specs. Why doesn't anyone just take 2 minutes to research before they decide to make things up. I bet you didn't even test drive one.

Are all 170 of your posts this useless?

[phm14]

Originally Posted by fatoni

thats why the 458, gtr, aventador, z06, ford gt and many others are such slouches out on a road course

Hey fat,
You priced out a set of rotors for a Aventado or GTR lately? Wonder what the per mile depreciation is on a $200K+ Lambo is? Track time is pricey. I'd rather spend more of my driving budget on that, rather than consumables, because it's seat time that makes you a better driver. I didn't say there were no 3200+ pound cars that could be good on track, they're just not the best choice - light, balanced cars with low CGs are. Some have bigger budgets than others, but I don't see a lot of Lambos on track, and for good reason. A track beater that your not afraid to walk away from when it gets wadded up is the smart choice if you want to allocate the funds for it. Speed on a road course is about skill and momentum, not power.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by phm14

Hey fat,
You priced out a set of rotors for a Aventado or GTR lately? Wonder what the per mile depreciation is on a $200K+ Lambo is? Track time is pricey. I'd rather spend more of my driving budget on that, rather than consumables, because it's seat time that makes you a better driver. I didn't say there were no 3200+ pound cars that could be good on track, they're just not the best choice - light, balanced cars with low CGs are. Some have bigger budgets than others, but I don't see a lot of Lambos on track, and for good reason. A track beater that your not afraid to walk away from when it gets wadded up is the smart choice if you want to allocated the funds for it. Speed on a road course is about skill and momentum, not power.

what you said then was that 3200 lbs was too heavy, which i dont agree with. i pointed out that there are many 3200 lb tack monsters. what you are saying now is that 3200 lbs is too expensive and that doesnt change the fact that what you said earlier doesnt ring true.
what you have done is just picked a point on a slippery slope and assumed its the best idea. if cog, cost, balance and weight are your concerns than why are you on an frs forum? get a miata since they have a lower cog, price, and curb weight all while having a much better balance.
if speed on a road course was about momentum, the frs would have destroyed the v6 mustang at streets (a pretty small technical track) but it didnt

[blu_]

Originally Posted by fatoni

what you said then was that 3200 lbs was too heavy, which i dont agree with. i pointed out that there are many 3200 lb tack monsters. what you are saying now is that 3200 lbs is too expensive and that doesnt change the fact that what you said earlier doesnt ring true.
what you have done is just picked a point on a slippery slope and assumed its the best idea. if cog, cost, balance and weight are your concerns than why are you on an frs forum? get a miata since they have a lower cog, price, and curb weight all while having a much better balance.
if speed on a road course was about momentum, the frs would have destroyed the v6 mustang at streets (a pretty small technical track) but it didnt

You keep saying Miatas have a lower COG, yet there is no evidence for this besides people trying to calculate it out on forums. As for the rest of your post and others, it just seems like everyone here is trying to justify their purchase using knowledge gained from top gear or the internets as opposed to just enjoying their cars.

If someone wanted to purchase a used Miata for a cheap fun track car, then they probably would have done it.

If someone wanted a 370Z for a good V6 FR setup, then they probably would have done it.

Obviously the people here who bought BRZ's or FRS did so because it made sense to them. Its a great small, light, economical, sports car with more utility than its convertible cousins.

Now Im sure this thread will go on for another 50 pages with the same strawman arguments about why various cars are, or are not, better than the GT86/BRZ/FRS...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by blu_

You keep saying Miatas have a lower COG, yet there is no evidence for this besides people trying to calculate it out on forums. As for the rest of your post and others, it just seems like everyone here is trying to justify their purchase using knowledge gained from top gear or the internets as opposed to just enjoying their cars.

If someone wanted to purchase a used Miata for a cheap fun track car, then they probably would have done it.

If someone wanted a 370Z for a good V6 FR setup, then they probably would have done it.

Obviously the people here who bought BRZ's or FRS did so because it made sense to them. Its a great small, light, economical, sports car with more utility than its convertible cousins.

Now Im sure this thread will go on for another 50 pages with the same strawman arguments about why various cars are, or are not, better than the GT86/BRZ/FRS...

i fail to see how people like shaikh over at fatcat calculating center of gravity is different from anyone else calculating center of gravity since math is math. and even if it wasnt enough cars like the c4 corvette shatter both the frs and miata cog.

my point was merely that saying the arguments made as to why someone would think that a lambo is a worse track car compared to the frs is going to be the exact same argument why the frs is a worse track car compared to the miata. its getting lost because he changed the subject but my point is that 3200 lbs is not too heavy for track use. in fact thats probably not even 100 lbs heavier than the average of the top 10 or 20 fastest street cars ever