FR-S/BRZ vs. Genesis Coupe

[ZDan]

FR-S and GC have similar suspension architecture, they don't have "the same suspension". Geometry and spring/damping/swaybar rates are very important!

From a tire width per vehicle weight perspective,
GC ~3450+200lb/(2x225+2x245) = 3.88 lb/mm
FR-S ~2700+200lb/(4x215) = 3.37 lb/mm

15% more tire per weight, slight handling advantage to the FR-S *if on the same make/model tires*, and *assuming* equivalent suspension.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Exage is right, if the engine only has a different turbo, then it just means that the gains people were making with easy mods has been partially eaten up at the factory already.

Only time will tell but I feel you guys will be shocked.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

FR-S and GC have similar suspension architecture, they don't have "the same suspension". Geometry and spring/damping/swaybar rates are very important!

From a tire width per vehicle weight perspective,
GC ~3450+200lb/(2x225+2x245) = 3.88 lb/mm
FR-S ~2700+200lb/(4x215) = 3.37 lb/mm

15% more tire per weight, slight handling advantage to the FR-S *if on the same make/model tires*, and *assuming* equivalent suspension.

Yeah I meant to say architecture.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Both the FRS and GC have the same suspension.

Not quite.

It's debatable, but the strut setup of the GC may actually be superior* to the FR-S'. It has two lower links and was originally a BMW development having to do with moving 'virtual steering centers'. It's a complicated relationship that comes down to effective application, but there is a chance that the GC could have more precise or better feeling steering at no penalty.

Also the GC has a more complicated multi-link design in the back, as it doesn't have an upper wishbone, but also separate links. This may be a wash though, as to which is better in the back.

* Yes I said the GC may have a better front suspension than the FR-S. Shock and awe...

[val_lixembeau]

Originally Posted by Sully

Question for all you really weight worrying people: Is your prospective FR-S/BRZ/GT86 going to be your daily drive? Do you need it to be?

If no? Why not just go all out and get yourself a Lotus 7 kit? Or used Elise/Exige? RX-7? Miata?

Don't know about anybody else, but I am looking for a daily driver and strongly considered a Miata, but didn't want a convertible. The power hardtop Miatas in Canada are very expensive.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Exage

Well from what I gathered from the basic knowledge Hyundai put a twin scroll turbocharger and a larger intercooler as the main reasons why it now develops 274hp. I'm therefore under the belief that the engine itself hasn't changed significantly (The 2.0T is still not DI; the V6 is though). This results in that the engine that will not see easy significant gains like the previous.

No no, I'm no superstar hahaha. It's was good, lots of fun things to get the hands dirty and boggle the mind!



Yes you misread my post. Re-read my comment: I figure they'll achieve only slightly better outputs as the previous, so gains aren't going to be as spectacular.

Well if the turbo is different, I will assume the compressor may be a bit bigger too. If they are going to a twin scroll for better spool(shocked at how this is considered 'high tech' to tuning communities new to turbos, check out Toyota turbos circa late 1980s...) and bigger IC, I'll make an assumption that the cold side is going to flow a bit more air as well. But probably not significantly more than the outgoing one. And that is the choke point on the engine when it comes to 'easy' mods.

Here is what me and Exage are getting at:

So if the 210 hp/180 whp motor guys were getting 240 whp (+60 whp, nice gain) after mods, I don't think the new ~270 hp (probably ~230 whp) motor guys will see much more than 250 whp after similar mods (~+20 whp). Unless the turbo is significantly upgraded over the outgoing one.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Well if the turbo is different, I will assume the compressor may be a bit bigger too. If they are going to a twin scroll for better spool(shocked at how this is considered 'high tech' to tuning communities new to turbos, check out Toyota turbos circa late 1980s...) and bigger IC, I'll make an assumption that the cold side is going to flow a bit more air as well. But probably not significantly more than the outgoing one. And that is the choke point on the engine when it comes to 'easy' mods.

Here is what me and Exage are getting at:

So if the 210 hp/180 whp motor guys were getting 240 whp (+60 whp, nice gain) after mods, I don't think the new ~270 hp (probably ~230 whp) motor guys will see much more than 250 whp after similar mods (~+20 whp). Unless the turbo is significantly upgraded over the outgoing one.

The old turbo was a single scroll that everybody hated on the forum. I actually would never buy a 2.0T GC though. I like N/A so 3.8 was the only option.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Well if the turbo is different, I will assume the compressor may be a bit bigger too. If they are going to a twin scroll for better spool(shocked at how this is considered 'high tech' to tuning communities new to turbos, check out Toyota turbos circa late 1980s...) and bigger IC, I'll make an assumption that the cold side is going to flow a bit more air as well. But probably not significantly more than the outgoing one. And that is the choke point on the engine when it comes to 'easy' mods.

Here is what me and Exage are getting at:

So if the 210 hp/180 whp motor guys were getting 240 whp (+60 whp, nice gain) after mods, I don't think the new ~270 hp (probably ~230 whp) motor guys will see much more than 250 whp after similar mods (~+20 whp). Unless the turbo is significantly upgraded over the outgoing one.

Perhaps I was looking into that Hyundai GEMA engine and it seems like get stuck with fuel delivery on the stock injectors. Over 20psi boost it seemed like they recommended a 550cc or Evo X drop-in (, then a new turbocharger).

I don't really care enough(/lack of info) to find if the injectors have been swapped on the twin scroll (550cc?). If they haven't for some reason, then they know the safe wall at just over 20psi of boost.

[Dimman]

550cc would put its fueling/max power capability (pending pump) at 2/3 of a 2JZ. So ~280 crank would be probably pushing it for the fuel system. And even less if the turbo falls way out of its efficiency range to get there.

GenCoupe problem for me isn't really either engine, its that the chassis tries to span two different classes. 3.8 GenCoupes are clearly trying to be a cheap G37 competitor, but having a chassis that fits that bigger, comfier car and bigger V6 hurts the potential of the 2.0T. If they had decided to separate the luxo-GT from the more sports-tuner (smaller, lighter, de-contented), they would have had a winner, with no questions in the 2.0T.

So Toyota and Subaru want to seize that niche. If a turbo FA16 comes a year or two later, Hyundai will not be able to compete, I think.

But if the GenCoupe was a bit smaller and maybe 200 lbs lighter, I don't think the FT86 would have even got the production go-ahead. This is where Hyundai should have grown some balls and tried to lead a market, rather than follow Infiniti's G37 market.

[SUB-FT86]

I agree with you Dimman. But I still like the GC.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Not quite.
It's debatable, but the strut setup of the GC may actually be superior* to the FR-S'. It has two lower links and was originally a BMW development having to do with moving 'virtual steering centers'. It's a complicated relationship that comes down to effective application, but there is a chance that the GC could have more precise or better feeling steering at no penalty.

Audi and others have done this as well. It's a way to reduce scrub radius with strut suspensions.

Details like this aren't anything like as important as the *execution*. Geometry, damping rates, bushing stiffnesses, on and on.

Also the GC has a more complicated multi-link design in the back, as it doesn't have an upper wishbone, but also separate links. This may be a wash though, as to which is better in the back.

Back or front, more joints and more complicated mechanisms do not necessarily equate to "better". Best for performance is still simple upper and lower control arms with toe links (steering tie rods up front). But again, execution and details are hugely important (double-wishbones all around not fully sorted/tuned isn't going to be superior to struts/multilink).

All that said, I'm sure that Hyundai is further up the curve now, and that Toyota/Subaru will also have a well-developed setup.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Audi and others have done this as well. It's a way to reduce scrub radius with strut suspensions.

Details like this aren't anything like as important as the *execution*. Geometry, damping rates, bushing stiffnesses, on and on.



Back or front, more joints and more complicated mechanisms do not necessarily equate to "better". Best for performance is still simple upper and lower control arms with toe links (steering tie rods up front). But again, execution and details are hugely important (double-wishbones all around not fully sorted/tuned isn't going to be superior to struts/multilink).

All that said, I'm sure that Hyundai is further up the curve now, and that Toyota/Subaru will also have a well-developed setup.

Which is why I used words like 'debatable' 'may' 'effective application' and 'could'.

From what I've heard (but no personal experience), the GenCoupe has a ways to go with the execution. Thing I remember off the top of my head is something about inadequate travel before smacking bump stops during any kind of 'sporty' driving.

I have still some mixed feelings about Hyundai, left over bias from their Pony days measured against their current improvement.

But stuff like the GenCoupe's suspension confuses me, and makes me still view them negatively from a performance point of view.

The fact is they did put a more complicated (and probably more expensive than necessary) suspension into the car. This could be seen as good. But the fact that I have read nothing about exemplary handling with regards to the car says, to me at least, that they ultimately failed, or have an incomplete understanding of what they are doing. They had a clean sheet during the design process and came up with a 'meh' car that cosmetically and on-paper was more geared to mimicking a G37, than being an actual driving car.

So Hyundai over-complicated and under-delivered. At least from the sports side of things.

In the FR-S/BRZ's case, the suspension and braking components are basically from the Legacy/Impreza parts bin trans/diff from existing TMC products, yet the application has made everyone who tested it in a sporting setting get all silly in love with it.

TMC/FHI simplified and over-delivered.

That to me is why the FT86 > the GenCoupe.

[catharsis]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Which is why I used words like 'debatable' 'may' 'effective application' and 'could'.

From what I've heard (but no personal experience), the GenCoupe has a ways to go with the execution. Thing I remember off the top of my head is something about inadequate travel before smacking bump stops during any kind of 'sporty' driving.

I have still some mixed feelings about Hyundai, left over bias from their Pony days measured against their current improvement.

But stuff like the GenCoupe's suspension confuses me, and makes me still view them negatively from a performance point of view.

The fact is they did put a more complicated (and probably more expensive than necessary) suspension into the car. This could be seen as good. But the fact that I have read nothing about exemplary handling with regards to the car says, to me at least, that they ultimately failed, or have an incomplete understanding of what they are doing. They had a clean sheet during the design process and came up with a 'meh' car that cosmetically and on-paper was more geared to mimicking a G37, than being an actual driving car.

So Hyundai over-complicated and under-delivered. At least from the sports side of things.

In the FR-S/BRZ's case, the suspension and braking components are basically from the Legacy/Impreza parts bin trans/diff from existing TMC products, yet the application has made everyone who tested it in a sporting setting get all silly in love with it.

TMC/FHI simplified and over-delivered.

That to me is why the FT86 > the GenCoupe.

I understand why the gen coupe is not good. Hyundai has no racing pedigree, they have no understand how to properly set up a car. This is really their only second attempt? I believe at a sports car, so it is what it is.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by catharsis

I understand why the gen coupe is not good. Hyundai has no racing pedigree, they have no understand how to properly set up a car. This is really their only second attempt? I believe at a sports car, so it is what it is.

This is actually their first attempt at a sports coupe. You can't count that FWD junk tiburon. But in the GC size class it is not a bad car like you're making it out to be. Yeah it wasn't intended to be a small lightweight coupe and maybe that's what you and others wanted it to be. In other words Hyundai didn't fail because of pedigree. They just failed to go the lightweight, RWD route. I have driven other medium sized RWD sports coupes and the GC excels amongst them.