FR-S/BRZ vs 2011+ Mustang V6

[Kunzite]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The issue described in the document did describe a failure that resulted in "unintended acceleration".

It has been totally PROVEN that Toyota throttle pedal angle sensors have developed whiskers that have been shown to cause potentially dangerous malfunctions. In the case cited, the failure was *relatively* benign, but still dangerous. It is totally possible that if other leads in this sensor were shorted that you could get less benign/more dangerous types of failures.

THERE IS AND HAS BEEN MORE GOING ON WITH TOYOTA THROTTLES THAN FLOORMATS OR WRONG PEDAL APPLICATION.

Sorry, but I can't consider your assumptions "it has been totally PROVEN", I'd need actual proofs; that document doesn't talk about SUA, so I guess you haven't read it carefully. And... shouting doesn't help your cause.

On the other side, I agree that going lead-free isn't necessarily the best solution.

[ZDan]

If you read the article, you would see that the owner/driver *did* experience a form of "sudden unintended acceleration". Also, if you saw the picture lf the device, you can see that whiskering could easily lead to shorts between other terminals, which would give problems of a different, possibly much more dangerous, nature.

The document shows that there have been serious and potentially dangerous malfunctions of more than one Toyota accelerator pedal position sensor due to tin whiskers.

[brufleth]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Actually, Toyota accelerator pedal position sensors HAVE been found to be susceptible to failures due to tin whiskering (extremely fine filaments that can grow to millimeters in length and cause intermittent short-circuits).
http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/referen...app-sensor.pdf

Hmm, a mechanical throttle cable doesn't seem like such a bad idea after all...

"In all cases, releasing the accelerator pedal closes the throttle, and brakes are fully operational"

That eliminates most of the cases where people claimed their cars were accelerating out of control.

Honestly, that pitch isn't any big deal. A part failed. This happens. I see shit like this all the time on engines and the vehicles they're installed on and I'm working with a MUCH smaller pool of vehicles. A mechanical throttle cable can jam relatively easily and it can jam in the open position. Much worse than the failure investigated in your link.

[Kunzite]

Let's quote directly from the article:

Vehicle testing of a MY 2005 Toyota Camry demonstrated that a 248 ohm short between VPA1 and VPA2 results in different vehicle responses depending on the sequence of operations following the fault
–If the pedal is depressed quickly, then throttle is limited to 15 degrees
–If the pedal is depressed slowly, then throttle can jump to 15 degrees, and further pedal application can achieve wide open throttle
•In all cases, releasing the accelerator pedal closes the throttle, and brakes are fully operational
–Although the vehicle would operate, we did not consider it to be driveable

It's certainly a defect, but it's not SUA and the acceleration doesn't get stuck to full throttle. Not in the described case, at least.
I guess that scandal helped a lot Governmental Motors. Bailing them out, then hitting hard a competitor - nice tactic, it worked perfectly. In the US, because us, Europeans, didn't buy it (or at least this is my impression, comparing US and EU forums).

Btw, my car was through a recall for a real accelerator-related problem: http://www.toyota.com/recall/pedal.html
This would happen in the Nordic (i.e. cold weather) countries; my car was perfectly fine - one would easily detect an issue way before it would become dangerous - but went through the modification, anyway when I took the car for the regular maintenance. It made no difference.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Kunzite

Let's quote directly from the article:
It's certainly a defect, but it's not SUA

The accelerator pedal JUMPING to 15 degrees is sudden unintended acceleration in the sense that we generally expect acceleration to increase linearly with pedal position and not to instantaneously increase.

and the acceleration doesn't get stuck to full throttle. Not in the described case, at least.

Exactly, not in *this* case. But looking at that part, it's just as likely for other shorts between different terminals to occur, which would have different effects. It's certainly possible that uncommanded full-throttle could have happened in other tin-whiskering related failures. I'm not saying that that has happened, only that it's easily a possibility.

I guess that scandal helped a lot Governmental Motors. Bailing them out, then hitting hard a competitor - nice tactic, it worked perfectly. In the US, because us, Europeans, didn't buy it (or at least this is my impression, comparing US and EU forums).

Fact: Toyota's HAVE experienced failures of accelerator position sensors, with or without the existence of any hypothetical "Governmental Motors" conspiracy theory. Unless you're saying that paper (which as far as I can tell hasn't been publicized, the only reason I found it is that tin whiskering is related to what I'm working on at my job) is part of it.

Btw, my car was through a recall for a real accelerator-related problem: http://www.toyota.com/recall/pedal.html

Do you not consider the failure described as a REAL accelerator related problem?

This would happen in the Nordic (i.e. cold weather) countries; my car was perfectly fine - one would easily detect an issue way before it would become dangerous - but went through the modification, anyway when I took the car for the regular maintenance. It made no difference.

I'd say that MOST valid recalls will result in "no difference" to the individual. Recalls are generally done not because it is CERTAIN that a failure will occur, but rather that the RISK of failure is serious enough that 10s or 100s of thousands of cars should be recalled to prevent 10s or hundreds of failures.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by Kunzite

Let's quote directly from the article:

It's certainly a defect, but it's not SUA and the acceleration doesn't get stuck to full throttle. Not in the described case, at least.
I guess that scandal helped a lot Governmental Motors. Bailing them out, then hitting hard a competitor - nice tactic, it worked perfectly. In the US, because us, Europeans, didn't buy it (or at least this is my impression, comparing US and EU forums).

Btw, my car was through a recall for a real accelerator-related problem: http://www.toyota.com/recall/pedal.html
This would happen in the Nordic (i.e. cold weather) countries; my car was perfectly fine - one would easily detect an issue way before it would become dangerous - but went through the modification, anyway when I took the car for the regular maintenance. It made no difference.

There goes that all too familiar air of superiority. Are you the voice of Europe?

[Kunzite]

ZDan, again, it's not the SUA which supposedly Toyota cars had. After spending huge amounts of $$, getting only this report which as you said was not even published (why?), now you're asking me to speculate? There should've been some proofs, true evidence that Toyota cars are killing their owners.
I'm afraid nothing you said can justify the witch hunt. A recall, yes; improvements on the production, OK. Lynching Toyota? Nope, sorry.

By the way, I really like to know why only a certain manufacturer had to be subjected to such drastic scrutiny. Why not... Governmental Motors, for example? ("conspiracy" or "coincidence", you can't deny it was very convenient for them). Why not every brand sold in the US?
Since it was claimed to be such an important safety issue, you'd want to make sure all manufacturers are OK, right? Not just to push GM sales up.

SVTSHC, you forgot to also read the "or at least this is my impression". Of course I'm not the voice of Europe; cut the BS - anyone could see what I saw: the hysteria from US media&everywhere, and the quietness in the EU.

[MrBonus]

Originally Posted by Gaiakai

There was this big whoopla about the MT82 transmission in the new Mustangs about them grinding gears. Scared off quite a lot of people, NHTSA got an investigation going but in the end concluded it was just driver error. I disagree with the NHTSA, but that's basically what the issue is with the new Stangs.

You disagree with the NHTSA based on what? Anecdotal evidence from a handful of vocal individuals on the Internet?

The MT82 is a fine transmission as long as you don't beat it like a rented mule. The problem is that a handful of vocal drag racers decided to heavily modify their cars, launch them hard, and power shift them and then complain when the transmission doesn't shift like it should.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Kunzite

ZDan, again, it's not the SUA which supposedly Toyota cars had.

How in the world would you know that? There have been many reports of Toyota throttles having a mind of their own. A malfunctioning Toyota throttle position sensors was shown to have tin whiskers that cause resistive shorts, determined to be the root cause of the malfunction.

I would be *very* surprised if this one instance is the ONLY case of unintended acceleration due to tin whiskering.

If you read the paper and don't believe it's a lie, I don't see how any reasonable person would conclude that this can't be related to unintended acceleration. Not only on Toyotas but on any drive-by-wire vehicle (which practically all are, now).

After spending huge amounts of $$, getting only this report which as you said was not even published (why?), now you're asking me to speculate?

It's not much of a logical leap. These sensors are known to have the potential to grow tin whiskers. These have been shown to be the cause of unintended acceleration in this case. Proof beyond any reasonable doubt.

It isn't much of a logical LEAP to say that it's not only possiblethat this issue has caused other failures of a similar nature, but that it's highly LIKELY.

I'm afraid nothing you said can justify the witch hunt. A recall, yes; improvements on the production, OK. Lynching Toyota? Nope, sorry.

I'm more interested in getting to the bottom of the issue rather than whether Toyota were, in your mind, subjected to a "witch hunt" or "lynching".

Whether or not Toyota were treated fairly or unfairly is immaterial to the questions:
Is/was there a real problem or problems?
If so, what are/were the root cause or causes?

By the way, I really like to know why only a certain manufacturer had to be subjected to such drastic scrutiny. Why not... Governmental Motors, for example? ("conspiracy" or "coincidence", you can't deny it was very convenient for them). Why not every brand sold in the US?

Your conspiracy theorizing is ridiculous!

Toyota was subject to scrutiny because people were reporting problems.
If anything, it seems to me that they've actually gotten off easy (so far). The initial Nasa study results pretty much absolved them of blame. However, now there has been confirmation of unintended acceleration related to a malfunctioning throttle pedal position sensor, with the cause of the malfunction identified.

[Kunzite]

Originally Posted by ZDan

It's not much of a logical leap. These sensors are known to have the potential to grow tin whiskers. These have been shown to be the cause of unintended acceleration in this case. Proof beyond any reasonable doubt.

Le sigh.
No, they haven't because the fault presented is not SUA. SUA means sudden, brutal acceleration out of the driver's control. SUA doesn't mean the inability to accelerate properly (even going to not having full-throttle until you press gently on the pedal). And from this paper, I understand it's extremely unlikely for it (SUA due to tin whiskers) to happen without generating a DTC.

"having a mind of their own"? Are we talking about SkyNet? Should I belive a car started its engine, switched from P to D and tried to kill its owner? (I remember reading such a story). Sorry, but malevolent artificial intelligence goes beyond tin whiskers - fortunately.

You can think it's a ridiculous conspiracy theory, but when the "owner" of a car maker pushes hard to punish one of the competitors, I see a conflict of interests.

By the way, AFAIK Toyota is no longer using potentiometers in its accelerator pedal position sensors.

[carbonBLUE]

this is a 86 vs mustang thread just so yall know
GET BACK ON TOPIC

[carbonBLUE]

sorry, this thread is supposed to be comparing the benefits and compromises of each and why one is better than the other...

[Kunzite]

My apologies. You're absolutely right, this is not the place to discuss about the Toyota scandal.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Kunzite

My apologies. You're absolutely right, this is not the place to discuss about the Toyota scandal.

its cool, everything becomes off topic here at some point lol