Will you Autocross your 86? - Page 7 - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

Homemade WRX · 01-30-2012, 12:05 PM

I think a lot of autocrosses (I am one) think the track is boring mostly because in their slow cars that have crap loads of time between the turns...insert BRZ/FR-S looking at power to weight but I'll be fixing that.

Having done FSAE back in college and being one of the drivers, I find Auto-x so boring that I want to cry...unless I'm in an FSAE, XP or well prepped SM/SM2 car.

DommerEOD · 01-30-2012, 12:30 PM

I'd like to give autox a go.. never hurts to try i guess.

Dave-ROR · 01-30-2012, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

Just want to stir the pot a little. You learn a lot more on becoming a better driver at an auto-x than track. Track days (not wheel to wheel racing) is zZZzzzZzz.

I don't agree with this at all. I know some excellent autocrosses that are absolutely HORRIBLE on the track.

To me, autocross is great at teaching car control at low speeds, but that's about it.

Dave-ROR · 01-30-2012, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

lol I couldn't disagree more.

But I guess we all have different opinions about track days. Maybe I think they're boring because my car is so slow. lol Keep in mind, I am not talking about wheel to wheel racing.

or

Granted, Pocono is the most boring track in the world. WGI is fun. NJMP & VIR are eh. But still not exciting as competitive auto-x.

I'm pretty sure ANY competitive event (even a basket weaving competition) is more competitive than a HPDE. VIR is a blast, unless you are doing something wrong I guess.

Earlier you said "learn more", but here you said "not exciting and competitive". Which did you mean? I can certainly agree with the competitive part (one is a competition, one isn't). Exciting, well that depends on your personal taste. I get bored with autocross but then I'm anywhere from 1.5-3 seconds faster than the 2nd place guy in my class. I don't do many HPDEs anymore (W2W instead) but when I do them I have fun doing them.

Learn more.. I think you learn at both, you just learn different things. I do things on the autocross course that I would NEVER consider doing on track.

DSR2409 · 01-30-2012, 01:07 PM

The BRZ/FRS should be in STX, since it has a torsen LSD, rather than a viscous type...That is where I plan on running it! Street tires for the win!

FRSpdDmn · 01-30-2012, 01:08 PM

Autocross is a fantastic place to learn basic car control in a controlled environment. It also teaches you to read the road and adjust very quickly. It is the best place to start, ASSUMING that you have some experienced guys ride with you and give you tips!
From there, instructed HPDE is the way to go to advance the skills that you built a foundation with in autox. If you're not having fun on track, then you're probably not pushing yourself very hard. If you've become a student in the most experienced run group, then you should start looking at competition / club racing schools, and/or private coaching. Your eyes will be opened by this!
Once you make the move to go w2w, find a class that has lots of competition ("spec" classes are great for this) with little focus on out-spending your opponents. Spend that "mod" money on private coaching.
Then you have Endurance racing, which is a whole 'nother breed that must be experienced to be appreciated.

Jayvelliott · 01-30-2012, 01:49 PM

100% positive that i will be auto crossing this baby

Xiao · 01-30-2012, 01:52 PM

I'm going to auto-x this baby for sure! can't wait for the actualy release date.

Loki2x · 01-31-2012, 12:09 PM

I plan to buy one for the primary purpose of autocross.

catharsis · 01-31-2012, 04:13 PM

The only reason why I'm eyeing this over the focus st is because I want to autox and I feel this car will be better for it. However the ST just looks so damn practical.

kanundrum · 01-31-2012, 05:44 PM

Like i said my plan before.

Buy it on a Friday, Friday night strip out interior. Sat Drift into a Lightpost!

Can't wait.

jdrxb9 · 02-23-2012, 11:29 AM

So under SCCA stock category rules, you are limited to whatever camber adjustment is available in the stock suspension plus any adjustment you can get from factory offered 'crash' bolts.

According to the motoiq article (link), there is no camber adjustment built-in to the FR-S knuckle to strut bolts.

According to the 2005 Scion TC service manual (available at scionlife.com), two factory crash bolts can give up to 1.5 deg. of adjustment from a spec value of -0.5 deg.

According to the 2009 Impreza service manual (available from dirtysubie.com), the stock subaru cam bolt gives a total adjustment range of 1.5 deg with a spec value of -0.17 deg.

So assuming Subaru and Scion follow through with different methods, we might have to choose between:
1) the BRZ with 'stiffer' front springs and maybe 1 deg. of static camber
or
2) the Scion with 'softer' front springs and maybe 2 deg. of static camber

Any thoughts on which would be better with the latest Hoosier DOT 'stickies'? (Keeping in mind the factory shock tuning won't be a factor since dampers are free and one sway bar is also free.)

Any thoughts on when we'll see factory service manuals to really nail down the camber issue?

Dave-ROR · 02-23-2012, 11:40 AM

They have the same suspension, so I highly doubt the max neg camber out of the stock car will vary between the two. It's basically an Impreza suspension so I'd suspect it'll be similar to an Impreza.

jdrxb9 · 02-23-2012, 12:04 PM

I fully agree that the max neg camber out of the stock car will be the same for both cars if the same strut to steering knuckle bolts are used on both.

Unfortunately, the SCCA will only allow what is documented by the OEM.

While it seems like a Subaru suspension and Subaru engineering, I think the lack of a cam bolt as noted by motoiq throws the adjustment method into question.

Open questions in my mind until we can see some production cars delivered or see the FSMs:
Will there be cam bolts (per normal Subaru practice) on all final cars (Scion and BRZ) and it was just missing on the car motoiq reviewed?
If so, Scion/Toyota technicians will be doing alignment the Subaru way instead of what they are used to.

Perhaps there won't be cam bolts on any cars and it will be the Subaru techs that will have to do alignment the scion/toyota way with various diameter bolts?

Perhaps the two makes will keep their procedures similar to their past practices and the cars will actually have/offer different bolts?

01-30-2012, 12:30 PM	#86
DommerEOD I'm a Carcissist Join Date: Nov 2011 Drives: JERRV , 11 STI, 07 FJ Location: SoCal/Germany/Afghanistan Posts: 166 Thanks: 14 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I'd like to give autox a go.. never hurts to try i guess. __________________ I am Ron Burgandy?

01-30-2012, 01:08 PM	#90
FRSpdDmn Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Drives: 128i, Z3 Coupe, Fiero GT Location: Dexter, MI Posts: 180 Thanks: 34 Thanked 25 Times in 18 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Autocross is a fantastic place to learn basic car control in a controlled environment. It also teaches you to read the road and adjust very quickly. It is the best place to start, ASSUMING that you have some experienced guys ride with you and give you tips! From there, instructed HPDE is the way to go to advance the skills that you built a foundation with in autox. If you're not having fun on track, then you're probably not pushing yourself very hard. If you've become a student in the most experienced run group, then you should start looking at competition / club racing schools, and/or private coaching. Your eyes will be opened by this! Once you make the move to go w2w, find a class that has lots of competition ("spec" classes are great for this) with little focus on out-spending your opponents. Spend that "mod" money on private coaching. Then you have Endurance racing, which is a whole 'nother breed that must be experienced to be appreciated. __________________ -Anthony Former '13 Whiteout FR-S, BMW 128i, BMW Z3 Coupe, Pontiac Fiero GT 2017 Pirelli World Challenge TC Rookie of the Year 2012 NASA SpecE30 National Champion *www.DriveFasterNow.com*

02-23-2012, 11:29 AM	#96
jdrxb9 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Drives: ND2, formerly BRZ (MT/CBS) Location: PA Posts: 200 Thanks: 27 Thanked 73 Times in 42 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	FR-S or BRZ for SCCA Stock / Factory Service Manual Availability So under SCCA stock category rules, you are limited to whatever camber adjustment is available in the stock suspension plus any adjustment you can get from factory offered 'crash' bolts. According to the motoiq article (link), there is no camber adjustment built-in to the FR-S knuckle to strut bolts. According to the 2005 Scion TC service manual (available at scionlife.com), two factory crash bolts can give up to 1.5 deg. of adjustment from a spec value of -0.5 deg. According to the 2009 Impreza service manual (available from dirtysubie.com), the stock subaru cam bolt gives a total adjustment range of 1.5 deg with a spec value of -0.17 deg. So assuming Subaru and Scion follow through with different methods, we might have to choose between: 1) the BRZ with 'stiffer' front springs and maybe 1 deg. of static camber or 2) the Scion with 'softer' front springs and maybe 2 deg. of static camber Any thoughts on which would be better with the latest Hoosier DOT 'stickies'? (Keeping in mind the factory shock tuning won't be a factor since dampers are free and one sway bar is also free.) Any thoughts on when we'll see factory service manuals to really nail down the camber issue?

02-23-2012, 11:40 AM	#97
Dave-ROR Site Moderator Join Date: Dec 2010 Drives: Stuff Location: Florida Posts: 10,317 Thanks: 955 Thanked 5,965 Times in 2,689 Posts Mentioned: 262 Post(s) Tagged: 8 Thread(s)	They have the same suspension, so I highly doubt the max neg camber out of the stock car will vary between the two. It's basically an Impreza suspension so I'd suspect it'll be similar to an Impreza. __________________ -Dave Track cars: 2013 Scion FRS, 1998 Acura Integra Type-R, 1993 Honda Civic Hatchback DD: 2005 Acura TSX Tow: 2022 F-450 Toys: 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06, 1993 Toyota MR2 Turbo, 1994 Toyota MR2 Turbo, 1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 Parts: 2015 Subaru BRZ Limited, 2005 Acura TSX Projects: 2013 Subaru BRZ Limited track car build FS: 2004 GMC Sierra 2500 LT CCSB 8.1/Allison with 99k miles

01-30-2012, 12:05 PM	#85
Homemade WRX Pro Subie Engine Nerd Join Date: Dec 2011 Drives: BRZ has a reserved space Location: 3MI Racing LLC Posts: 261 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Mentioned: 1 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I think a lot of autocrosses (I am one) think the track is boring mostly because in their slow cars that have crap loads of time between the turns...insert BRZ/FR-S looking at power to weight but I'll be fixing that. Having done FSAE back in college and being one of the drivers, I find Auto-x so boring that I want to cry...unless I'm in an FSAE, XP or well prepped SM/SM2 car.

01-30-2012, 01:07 PM	#89
DSR2409 Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Drives: 05 Nissan Sentra Se-r Spec V Location: Saginaw, MI Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	The BRZ/FRS should be in STX, since it has a torsen LSD, rather than a viscous type...That is where I plan on running it! Street tires for the win!

01-30-2012, 01:49 PM	#91
Jayvelliott Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Drives: Subaru BRZ Limited Location: Tampa Posts: 115 Thanks: 3 Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	100% positive that i will be auto crossing this baby

01-30-2012, 01:52 PM	#92
Xiao Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Drives: 2005 Honda Civic Location: USA Posts: 28 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I'm going to auto-x this baby for sure! can't wait for the actualy release date.

01-31-2012, 04:13 PM	#94
catharsis Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Drives: honda civic si 08 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 176 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 18 Posts Mentioned: 1 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	The only reason why I'm eyeing this over the focus st is because I want to autox and I feel this car will be better for it. However the ST just looks so damn practical.

01-31-2012, 05:44 PM	#95
kanundrum Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Drives: 2013 Whiteout FR-S Location: Laurel, MD Posts: 5,364 Thanks: 2,704 Thanked 3,016 Times in 1,711 Posts Mentioned: 106 Post(s) Tagged: 3 Thread(s)	Like i said my plan before. Buy it on a Friday, Friday night strip out interior. Sat Drift into a Lightpost! Can't wait.

02-23-2012, 12:04 PM	#98
jdrxb9 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Drives: ND2, formerly BRZ (MT/CBS) Location: PA Posts: 200 Thanks: 27 Thanked 73 Times in 42 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I fully agree that the max neg camber out of the stock car will be the same for both cars if the same strut to steering knuckle bolts are used on both. Unfortunately, the SCCA will only allow what is documented by the OEM. While it seems like a Subaru suspension and Subaru engineering, I think the lack of a cam bolt as noted by motoiq throws the adjustment method into question. Open questions in my mind until we can see some production cars delivered or see the FSMs: Will there be cam bolts (per normal Subaru practice) on all final cars (Scion and BRZ) and it was just missing on the car motoiq reviewed? If so, Scion/Toyota technicians will be doing alignment the Subaru way instead of what they are used to. Perhaps there won't be cam bolts on any cars and it will be the Subaru techs that will have to do alignment the scion/toyota way with various diameter bolts? Perhaps the two makes will keep their procedures similar to their past practices and the cars will actually have/offer different bolts?

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