Tracking with Forced Induction

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Can you explain to me how an oil cooled Rotrex supercharger with a heat exchanger and intercooler along with added pulleys and belt complexity has less parts that can fail?

Sure. Compare the complexity of the Jackson Racing kit and the Kraftwerks kit. One adds onto the crank pulley, while the other only adds two idlers.

When you look at the kits from a failure analysis perspective, you can see why our decision was easy.

We're tired of losing engines; failure prevention is absolutely top priority.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Since when do superchargers not have exhaust manifolds/headers as well. In fact many of them add additional pipe in a similar area to most turbo kits. Regardless of the forced induction kit, heat has to be dealt with.

They don't add additional heated surface area like turbos do, unless you're using one of the few kits that keep the turbo in the back. But then, your intake plumbing gets longer...

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by King Tut

The supercharger is compressing air and is being oil cooled no different than a turbo, it is just being spun by a belt instead of the exhaust gasses. It has to be factored into the heat equation.

A few hundred degrees on the supercharger is NOT comparable to 1200-1500 on the Turbo hotside, or even the heat that is conducted over to the turbo compressor side.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by King Tut

An actual track car running the Full Blown kit made that recommendation as it eliminated their overheating issues at the track.

You know how muscle cars run cowls with an opening at the back of the hood? It's because air gets sucked in there.

Now if air is getting sucked in toward the back of the engine bay, then that means the pressure differential in front of the radiator and behind the radiator is smaller, meaning less air is flowing through the radiator.

If opening the seal at the back of the hood solved their problems, then something else is going on.

Where and how was this car overheating?

[kcam86]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Sure. Compare the complexity of the Jackson Racing kit and the Kraftwerks kit. One adds onto the crank pulley, while the other only adds two idlers.

When you look at the kits from a failure analysis perspective, you can see why our decision was easy.

We're tired of losing engines; failure prevention is absolutely top priority.

You always make me second guess myself about my purchase of a turbo lmao! But you always have a wealth a knowledge to share ty

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by kcam86

You always make me second guess myself about my purchase of a turbo lmao! But you always have a wealth a knowledge to share ty

If the BRZ were my car, and I had an unrealisically large budget, I'd be turboing the car too.

However, because our car sees a LOT of track time, we need to make sure the car is reliable over all. When you lose a few stock engines, you start to get paranoid (and the CSG bosses are all in a "reliability over sheer power" mode now). We already know how to make more power. We want to make the power with rock solid reliability, and that's why we chose the JR supercharger. As with all other components on the CSG cars, the parts were purchased, not given or sponsored.

[rb6freak]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

So since everyone LOVES to say that their turbo setup runs cool, I'll say it again: Lets see if your turbo setup can survive 3 laps at the track with me driving.

Challenge accepted. Let's plan for August time-frame :-)

[glamcem]

another thing to mention for those who want to track their cars is the transient response differences between two options (SC vs TC) ..so for that I reason I personally like NA over the other options so my list would be like NA >SC> TC..but I have to admit I've never experienced such power delivery in the Rotrex units, power and torque consistently builds up ..I think I am just curious to test that, lol..

even the so called "lag is non-existent... check my spool videos" turbos (very small ones) still suffer the uncertainty of the throttle response..on the dyno, on WOT turbo lag looks non-existent but on the road course I ( and assume most guys who track their cars) prefer smooth, instant, predictable power delivery that results in more consistent track experience..I think if there was a reliable NA option that nets me 50 or a bit more hp (something that doesn't require expensive race engine build) I would prefer that over the SC.. but since I am already paying $4k I don't mind getting +100whp on the side

[kcam86]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

If the BRZ were my car, and I had an unrealisically large budget, I'd be turboing the car too.

However, because our car sees a LOT of track time, we need to make sure the car is reliable over all. When you lose a few stock engines, you start to get paranoid (and the CSG bosses are all in a "reliability over sheer power" mode now). We already know how to make more power. We want to make the power with rock solid reliability, and that's why we chose the JR supercharger. As with all other components on the CSG cars, the parts were purchased, not given or sponsored.

Just out of curiosity since you have experience with @ImperiousRex 's car that is a greddy turbo. What are your thoughts on its reliability thus far? From what I've seen they've been pretty rock solid it appears but they may not be as prolific as you guys are with sharing the hardships of pushing these cars. ty again

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by kcam86

Just out of curiosity since you have experience with @ImperiousRex 's car that is a greddy turbo. What are your thoughts on its reliability thus far? From what I've seen they've been pretty rock solid it appears but they may not be as prolific as you guys are with sharing the hardships of pushing these cars. ty again

You're welcome to ask him yourself

The car has not suffered any catastrophic failures, but it is also more vigilantly/proactively maintained than ANY other FRS/BRZ that I regularly see. It also has virtually every off-the-shelf cooling and preventative mod available. Minus the "hot turbo melting the fans" issue (radiant heat issue that so many here don't seem to understand), I think we've gotten everything else down for now.

Remember, EVERYTHING in this engine bay is shielded/wrapped/ceramic coated.

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by glamcem

another thing to mention for those who want to track their cars is the transient response differences between two options (SC vs TC) ..so for that I reason I personally like NA over the other options so my list would be like NA >SC> TC..but I have to admit I've never experienced such power delivery in the Rotrex units, power and torque consistently builds up ..I think I am just curious to test that, lol..

even the so called "lag is non-existent... check my spool videos" turbos (very small ones) still suffer the uncertainty of the throttle response..on the dyno, on WOT turbo lag looks non-existent but on the road course I ( and assume most guys who track their cars) prefer smooth, instant, predictable power delivery that results in more consistent track experience..I think if there was a reliable NA option that nets me 50 or a bit more hp (something that doesn't require expensive race engine build) I would prefer that over the SC.. but since I am already paying $4k I don't mind getting +100whp on the side

You're right about transient response even with an SC. With an SC, you'll have a short "early throttle" (as I'll call it) lag with the engine due to load from the SC, till the throttle opens up sufficiently. It's still earlier than a turbo, but still there.

Here's where throttle-by-wire can help. The throttle is tunable in software based on engine load & rpm, etc. That means a tuner can smartly on a dyno (it'll take time and itterative flashes until we get live tuning with EcuTek, if we get it at all) tune the throttle response such that the response to your foot on the pedal more closely mimics that of a NA motor. It's using software to cover up a mechanical shortcoming.

Heck, with even MORE work, something similar could be done with turbo cars too. It'd just take work and experimentation to do.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by rb6freak

Challenge accepted. Let's plan for August time-frame :-)

Please bring all of your logging equipment.

86CUP event schedule:

05/10/2014 Streets of Willow CW Saturday
06/22/2014 Big Willow Sunday
07/26/2014 Streets of Willow (Twilight) CCW Saturday
08/30/2014 Buttonwillow Raceway 13 CW Saturday
09/20/2014 Autoclub Speedway (Infield Road Course) Saturday (SubieFest)

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

You're right about transient response even with an SC. With an SC, you'll have a short "early throttle" (as I'll call it) lag with the engine due to load from the SC, till the throttle opens up sufficiently. It's still earlier than a turbo, but still there.

Here's where throttle-by-wire can help. The throttle is tunable in software based on engine load & rpm, etc. That means a tuner can smartly on a dyno (it'll take time and itterative flashes until we get live tuning with EcuTek, if we get it at all) tune the throttle response such that the response to your foot on the pedal more closely mimics that of a NA motor. It's using software to cover up a mechanical shortcoming.

Heck, with even MORE work, something similar could be done with turbo cars too. It'd just take work and experimentation to do.

Changing throttle/pedal relationship doesn't eliminate turbo spoolup

[mike the snake]

Were the fans running when that melting occurred?