Help Gmookher decide AP racing Vs Stoptech BBK vs Essex SPRINT KIT

[BRAWL]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I've only used them for 4,000 miles so far so obviously my experience of long term usage isn't valid yet, but I have no concerns so far. If I lived up in the northern US where road salt is common my decision would have been a lot more difficult. Honestly the dust boot arguement, if you track your car anyways, really doesn't have much merit considering. Hell I *remove* the dust boots from my other street cars with OEM calipers because when I do track them it lets me avoid the mess.

I'm guessing I'll be putting 20k a year or more on this car with 6-9 track days per year, so I'll determine how long they last eventually

Joe brought up a good point with the Project Mu stuff. I have very little knowledge of their kits, who makes their calipers, etc but if they are in aust you are less likely to be anally abused on pricing if nothing else.

Not wrong about rectal bleedage when it comes Aussie pricing. We cop it more fierce than an inmate in skirt

I pick up the car at the end of January and will likely take her to a track day on the stock setup to gauge what I need as far as an upgrade.

Thinking about it, the dust boots on my 300zx melted ages ago and the brakes have been no different so I guess there is little drama with the Sprint kit on a DD car.

Keep the forum peeps up to date with how the brakes go for you

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Why would the 4 wheel STI setup bias be shifted "heavily" frontwards versus the OEM BRZ setup? The hot ticket on most OEM brake setups is to run a more aggressive pad in the rear anyways.

The pistons up front are pretty big (along with the larger rotor), and although it's a slightly larger rear rotor, the pistons are a little smaller back there. Jamal ran the numbers and the 4 wheel kit does shift it forwards.

Originally Posted by King Tut

I guess the question is whether gmookher is going to be needing to worry about making a late brake maneuver to pull off an inside pass going into 10a at Road Atlanta or whether he will just be doing some fun track days.

Agreed 100%!

- Andrew

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by King Tut

This would still be my vote even for gmookher. To me the advantages are that it is an OEM braking system and replacements are very affordable. Can you get a full set of 4 rotors and pads for $700 shipped for any of the aftermarket brake kits? Proper pad selection is the key to getting the most out of any brake system you choose.

STI brake pads and rotors are very expensive compared to the replacement items on the Essex Sprint kit and even just regular OEM equipment. Essex developed and engineered their BBKs to work with the OEM braking system. Doesn't hurt that they are also the goto guys to develop braking systems for racing teams on a consistent basis.

Out of curiosity, what tires are you guys running with?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by CSG David

STI brake pads and rotors are very expensive compared to the replacement items on the Essex Sprint kit and even just regular OEM equipment. Essex developed and engineered their BBKs to work with the OEM braking system. Doesn't hurt that they are also the goto guys to develop braking systems for racing teams on a consistent basis.

Out of curiosity, what tires are you guys running with?

Some quick math on the STI parts, using like pads from Essex:
2004 STi front rotors (Centric blanks): $93/each
2008 STI rear rotors (would need to be redrilled but regular 2004 STi rotors don't work right?): $55 each from NAPA
C300 front pads: $386
C300 rear pads: $215

Total: $897

Essex Sprint Kit:
Front Rotors: $165/each
Rear Rotors (Centric blanks): $44/each
C300 front pads: $190
C300 rear pads: $235

Total: $843

I'm running 235/40 AD08s currently.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Some quick math on the STI parts, using like pads from Essex:
2004 STi front rotors (Centric blanks): $93/each
2008 STI rear rotors (would need to be redrilled but regular 2004 STi rotors don't work right?): $55 each from NAPA
C300 front pads: $386
C300 rear pads: $215

Total: $897

Essex Sprint Kit:
Front Rotors: $165/each
Rear Rotors (Centric blanks): $44/each
C300 front pads: $190
C300 rear pads: $235

Total: $843

I'm running 235/40 AD08s currently.

Another big difference is how much better in general those rotors are over just OEM STI blanks. More fins, thicker, lighter, etc for just a little bit more and probably last quite a bit longer than the STI version. Not to mention the brake pads on the Essex kit are ultra fatty (15mm pad material vs. 10mm OEM). Dave's tire setup is a good indicator at how good these brakes are and a ballpark as to what people will generally run for their car setup.

We'll be doing some pretty abusive tests soon. Stay tuned for that.

[Hanakuso]

The good thing about the Essex kit in the looks department is that they flow well with the rear stock setup since they are both not painted and they don't look "unbalanced" since they aren't a huge BBK. IMO the painted look alway have looked to flashy and hard anodized has always looked great "raw". Plus I believe paint on calipers can diminish the cooling effect

Another point I want to make and hopefully someone with more knowledge then me can chime in is that even tho the STI calipers are bigger and can handle more heat, it's kind of a after thought. Cooling should happen with the rotors and less heat on calipers since heat will wear the boot/seals/etc faster

[JoeBoxer]

I love these brake threads, I've learned a lot from this one and the one i started asking opinions on some rotors and pads.

[JRitt]

Guys,
I've been buried with other work items, and I'll be in and out of the office as well. I'll try to put something together comparing the various systems on offer. For a little background, I was the Sales Mgr. at StopTech for 4 1/2 years, and I've been with Essex selling AP Racing products for 4 years. I've sold thousands of brake systems to retail customers, race teams, and OEM's. I've also been personally autoxing and tracking cars since 1999 (Integra Type R, 350Z, C5 Z06, Miata). I can give some good insight.

What it boils down to is your goals: If you are focused on track performance, you will not find anything superior to the Competition Systems we (Essex) have put together. The specs of our systems are far superior to anything else out there...stainless steel pistons, anti-knockback springs, high vane count discs, ridiculously low weight, durable finish when exposed to heat, stainless steel caliper hardware, lowest consumable costs (pads and discs). If you plan on putting a lot of heat into your brakes, our systems win...period. The performance/price ratio is of the charts. Our systems are built from parts that were designed specifically to take abuse and make you go faster. That's their only mission. None of the others are even in the same category. If you will be tracking your brakes hard during the next several years, you will spend less and get more with our Competition Systems.

All of the other kits out there fall into a gray area that spans the street and track. The components used are street parts modified or enhanced to be 'track capable'. That means they weigh more than they must, don't have some of the features that are ideal for the track (aluminum pistons and dust boots, not as many vanes in disc, etc.). I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing. Again, it's a matter of goals. Do you want the ultimate performance, or do you want other things? Once you've made that decision, it's shades of gray. With some of the kits you move closer towards a pure road kit, and with others you hover closer to a track setup.

My advice would be to go through each kit/brand you're considering and determine which is most geared towards what you want. Do you want to go faster? Do you care how it looks? Are you trying to fill up big wheels? Do you want less expensive replacement parts? Does that even matter if you won't be burning them up frequently? There is no one simple answer, as everyone's needs are different.

Along those lines...one thing I haven't seen mentioned too much in this thread is service and support. Will the company/person you buy from be there to recommend advice and support? For example, I'm on these forums every day giving advice and recommendations on pad choice, system choice, etc. I've told plenty of people not to buy our most expensive kit if I believe a different one better suits their needs. Also, we offer a rebuild service, so when it's time to have work done on the calipers, we can make your life easy and do it for you. Will a real human answer the phone when you call the company for help, or will you end up in automated attendant limbo? From whom will you be taking advice...does the person giving it have any actual experience? Does the brand you are considering sponsor this forum and support the FT86 community? I personally think all of these things come into play. We jump through hoops for our customers. We listen to what they want, and try to provide products & solutions for their needs. Please don't underestimate the value of these services, which are more rare than common these days.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by JRitt

Along those lines...one thing I haven't seen mentioned too much in this thread is service and support. Will the company/person you buy from be there to recommend advice and support?

I mentioned it Now go reply to Lance's email

[Supermassive]

Originally Posted by gmookher

What FI solution are you on, curious, with that clutch?

P&L Motorsports Stage 1, the determining factor on going with that aggressive of a clutch is the torque holding capability of 500 ftlbs. I wont be running that much obviously but I will be over 300 ftlbs which is the average torque holding capacity of all the kits below it. Not that they wouldn't be capable of holding whatever torque I produce, but I like the overhead afforded by going to the 6 puck with higher holding capacity. Sure it will make driving around town a bit tougher, but I think I'll live.

The other thing I wanted to mention is that as much as I like my modifications to actually improve performance, I like them to look like they belong on the car. With my 18" Gramlights the stock rotors look puny, so yes I am also looking to increase the rotor diameter to help the car look better on top of improving performance. Like I said this isnt a track only car so appearance does matter, but I am not looking for appearance without substance so dont shoot me.

[gmookher]

As an add, I got this reply from Stoptech: who read this thread from i link I sent and responded as follows

Our front kits, no matter the rotor size or piston count, are engineered to have the same output to work properly with the stock master cylinder and rear brakes to maintain optimal braking performance, ABS and chassis control system function. By machining all of our calipers in-house, we are able to offer a thousands of piston size combinations (26mm to 44mm in 2mm increments) to allow for the correct brake balance, no matter the application. Our rear brake kits with match OEM output as to not upset the optimized balance provided by the front kit.

Our painted and Sport Trophy calipers include high temperature resistant silicone dust boots to allow for track usage without excessive rebuild intervals and reduced maintenance on street driven vehicles. Replacement dust boot and seal kits sell for $50 per caliper on 4 piston front calipers, $25 per caliper on 2 piston calipers used on the rear.

This essentially suggests that there isnt as big an increase in torque on the bigger BBK, but just a greater thermal capacity, that its pretty toned down even on their bigger BBK, which may not be the case with all vendors.

[SubieNate]

The one thing that attracts me to some of the bigger systems is the ability to beat on them while using street friendly pads. If they have enough cooling/thermal mass to keep the temps down then super aggressive race pads are likely not necessary unless you're competing at a high level.

Or, that's the way I've been thinking about it. I may be way off. The Sprint kit is still my favorite. 10 lb/corner is huge!

Nathan

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by SubieNate

The Sprint kit is still my favorite. 10 lb/corner is huge!

20lbs of unsprung weight off the nose of the car is INSANE. Which is why I want a street friendly caliper using those discs.

[JoeBoxer]

Originally Posted by gmookher

As an add, I got this reply from Stoptech: who read this thread from i link I sent and responded as follows

Our front kits, no matter the rotor size or piston count, are engineered to have the same output to work properly with the stock master cylinder and rear brakes to maintain optimal braking performance, ABS and chassis control system function. By machining all of our calipers in-house, we are able to offer a thousands of piston size combinations (26mm to 44mm in 2mm increments) to allow for the correct brake balance, no matter the application. Our rear brake kits with match OEM output as to not upset the optimized balance provided by the front kit.

Our painted and Sport Trophy calipers include high temperature resistant silicone dust boots to allow for track usage without excessive rebuild intervals and reduced maintenance on street driven vehicles. Replacement dust boot and seal kits sell for $50 per caliper on 4 piston front calipers, $25 per caliper on 2 piston calipers used on the rear.

This essentially suggests that there isnt as big an increase in torque on the bigger BBK, but just a greater thermal capacity, that its pretty toned down even on their bigger BBK, which may not be the case with all vendors.

I just placed my order do you want me to have them add one of these on?