I didn't like the AT and I'm trying to understand why

[llama_au]

*subscribes*

Originally Posted by jeebus

...And yes, ABS does take away a little bit of the driving experience and feel, but the benefits outweigh the cons in almost all cases. I have raced non-ABS vehicles and my brain just cannot process fast enough to pump to avoid lockup in all situations. My brain can, however, process fast enough to shift. So I wouldn't really say this comparison is valid.

Everyone is definitely wired differently. Up until recently I'd never owned a car with ABS, and I've never had a situation where ABS has kicked in. I guess I've learnt to modulate breaking very well because I was taught never to rely on it. For the same reason I think I've learnt to steer well and concentrate on steering, accelerating and braking because there haven't been other distractions.

I must say that if I was a confident manual driver, I would buy a manual but no amount of trying and peer pressure has helped. It's not that I can't 'drive' reasonably well, I've just never managed to perfect the coordination of driving manual and it's one less stress I could do without when I just want to enjoy the car. Shock horror, I even used to track automatics to the confusion and disappointment of others, but each to his or her own. I plan to get out again in my automatic BRZ...when it arrives this time next year...

I must say the BRZ I drove had an auto trans like I'd never experienced before. Every other automatic I've driven with manual mode has had far too much computer intervention. You'd attempt to shift in other automatics and there'd be the inevitable lag while it decided if it wanted to or not. In the end you'd never use the manual mode because the car had a mind of it's own and there was no point. I absolutely adored the fact that the trans in the BRZ would just do what you told it to, regardless of whether it didn't agree with the gear you wanted to downshift to for the speed you were doing, it would just do it because you asked it to. It allowed me to accidentally hit 6,800rpm on a downshift to second because well...I wasn't paying attention to speed I was doing and wasn't familiar with the car. I also realised then it had stored peak revs for the trip. Took it back to the dealer after the test drive and pretended nothing happened hehe

I like that, the car does what you ask of it and doesn't think about. I think I might regularly use the paddle shifters because the car made it fun to use.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by RYU

I'm personally tired of reading about why MT is God's gift to cars. You guys like to row the gears manually... Trust me. We get it. I still own a manual so I get it. Please no need to tell the world for the Nth time AGAIN unless you guys really like to hear yourselves talk online. Please.. my "ears" are bleeding here.

This thread is about the qualities of the Toyota 6AT and what makes it good/bad for the OP.

I had a feeling this thread would go down the shitter faster than the GT-R shifts.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by jeebus

So you see, while we MT freaks might be a little crazy to you autotragic drivers, we are the more passionate drivers and we know what we want. How often do you find an automotive journalist say they'd prefer the automatic....like almost never. There's a reason for that.

Racers know manuals are obsolete

"I've just been obsoleted!" exclaimed Pobst. "Years of practice and training to learn how to shift a car have now become completely unnecessary. And, in fact, that, to me, is a little bit sad." Sure, if you still feel the need to row your own, Porsche makes a 911 with a seven-speed manual, but please believe me, PDK is the way to go.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...#ixzz25K772Y5V

Back on topic, my auto still stays well into the fat part of the TQ curve when shifting up from redline. For 1st/2nd gear Auto-X use perhaps the final ratio is a disadvantage, but not on a road race track.

[Jedi1]

I would be interested in running the AT and an MT back to back on a road course with a decent telemetry system. Corner entry should be consistently quicker with the AT. I'm thinking with more consistent entry speed, the exit should not suffer much because of gearing.I was wishing for a bit more gear and power on corner exit. All things considered the AT was seriously impressive. I like both transmissions for completely different reasons.

[ESC POD]

Track Car- MT
Daily Driver, Commuter, Stop and Go traffic- AT

I don't care about 0-60 or 10th of second in a lap when I'm trying to get home on a Friday evening, in 9mph traffic, and I'm NOT riding the clutch...

Sport Mode-Trac Off-Paddle shifters...Awesome!

[Jedi1]

I've spent quality time with all manner of dual clutch and well tuned manumatic and to say this auto isn't track worthy is just plain incorrect. If the manual is what you prefer on track, I get it. But the AT in this car really comes into its own when driven above 7/10's.

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by Shizuma

I hate how MT people seem to be obsessed with saying this, does ABS take away from the driving experience because you no longer have to pump the brakes like you used to? Of course not, or maybe automatic starters as opposed to the hand crank starters of the old days. Manually shifting gears is no more a part of the experience of driving as pumping the brakes is when you stop, or any other feature of the car that's been made automated over the years. If you like being forced to manually shift your car 100% of the time then more power to you, but having an automatic doesn't take away from the driving experience for those of us who could care less about having to shift the car ourselves all the time. I know I've never once felt oh, this car is no fun because I'm not constantly having to depress a clutch all the time.

traditionally "true" sports cars have always had manual transmissions
because of the ability to offer 100% "control" over the driving performance
if you "enjoy" the "convenience" of an automatic transmission,then you should be offered that option.

[wlfpck]

Originally Posted by Jedi1

Odd that you asked this question today of all days. I just took the FRS into the dealer this morning. I had a break from my current tour about 4 weeks ago and took the car out for a day of serious driving.
About 10 minutes into my second run, the transmission started shifting itself from 3rd to 4th when I had not called for an upshift. In a straight line, not a huge deal. In a braking zone when you are expecting some engine braking to aid turn in, HUGE DEAL! My dealer is consulting with Toyota regarding whether this is a heat related fail safe or ecu/pm issue. If it is a heat based fail safe I have asked to question whether or not adding a quality trans cooler will effect our warranties. I'll let everyone on here know the response as soon as I get an answer.

A trans oil cooler is almost a necessity imho (in my humble opinion). Especially if you track the car. You might also want to contact either Level Ten or IPT. They do some great work. But seeing as how well the auto transmission is coming straight from the factory, I highly doubt the need for any upgraded solenoids and such. They do however carry the Raybestos friction plates and such. Which again, from the way the factory transmission comes from the factory, I doubt it will be needed unless you make a HUGE amount of torque.

I really do recommend B&M racing's transmission oil cooler. They have a nice cold fluid bypass built in so if you're in an area that sees snow like me, you don't have to worry about your tranmisssion oil never heating up. lol.

***********
As for the people that discuss what a driver's car is and how a manual is a necessity. That's not necessarily true. I think overall it has to deal with how the car responds to the driver input. For instance, if I turn the steering wheel, does the car turn? or does it just "roll" around like a boat?

I think the same thing applies to the transmissions. If I choose to shift, does it let me do so. With the FR-S, it does. Those shifts are extremely quick. From that perspective, I think it does suit the idea behind a "driver's" car.

Next we have to discuss the generation difference. I am currently 24. I grew up in a high school where we were almost picked for the high school for the show for "laguna beach" but then it wouldn't have been called laguna beach... anyways... There were kids that drove 7-series and such to class. Parents were rich and bought their kids new cars. I drove my 91 accord which I later swapped. If you went in to my school, you could count on your hands the amount of people that could actually drive stick. 10 years before that... things were a lot different. (this applies mainly to the USA since Europe has a lot higher percentage of manual drivers).

But... given that note, there were not even driving schools that would teach a manual. Most families never had a manual car and simply put... the kids never learned. As a result, they never had a car to practice on. However, with the car culture booming, people often modified their cars and such (think back to when fast and furious came out. Note i did not say "tastefully"). People who's parents were never into cars became interested in cars.

Taking that into account, is the 86 meant to be a civic, corolla, etc? No. It was meant as a sports car. Traditionally, that means that it came with a manual transmission. Sports car owners wanted the sporty look, the fast shifts, the power, the handling, etc. In order to achieve that, it was necessary to use a manual as the automatics 10 years ago were no where near what it is today.

So we talk about a drivers car. We talk about the automatic paddle shifts taking away from the experience. Does it really? To those who are experienced drivers who autocross all the time, race all the time, who have owned a manual car all their lives, pick the manual. You like it. It's what you grew up with. Go for it. For those that are NOT the magazine drivers, those who can drive a stick but not more than daily driving it, get a auto if you want.

TL;DR version...

Car culture has evolved to include first time car enthusiasts who've never owned a manual car and have never learned.

Technology has evolved/improved.

For those that can drive stick from point a to point b, it may be faster for them to race with an auto since they're not as experienced but have no time to practice day in and day out.

It is a matter of preference and what you personally want from your car.

An auto transmission does NOT exclude a car from being a "driver's car".

[Jedi1]

The fact that you conclude with "an auto transimission DOES exclude a car from being a driver's car" is strange to me. This is 100% "You're Opinion". I will drive the ever loving wheels off our auto FRS. Then I'll hop in the 355, Super Late Model, CMC Camaro or E21 Chump Car, all with Manual boxes and drive them to death too.

This debate is completely personal. Do YOU enjoy the car? If yes, then its a drivers car, FOR YOU.,

[wlfpck]

Originally Posted by Jedi1

The fact that you conclude with "an auto transimission DOES exclude a car from being a driver's car" is strange to me. This is 100% "You're Opinion". I will drive the ever loving wheels off our auto FRS. Then I'll hop in the 355, Super Late Model, CMC Camaro or E21 Chump Car, all with Manual boxes and drive them to death too.

This debate is completely personal. Do YOU enjoy the car? If yes, then its a drivers car, FOR YOU.,

Lol. I did leave out the "NOT". I have edited that.

And yep it is my opinion. On that note, when I get my FR-S, it will be a manual as that is what I want, assuming that nothing changes.

The Driver's Car concept is something that is user (driver) defined. If the limits of that ends at simply selecting the gear you are in quickly, then both auto and manual will suit your need.

Again... it is a preference and like in my previous post, it is a matter of how you define "Driver's Car".

My current Scion tC is an auto. My accord is a manual. As of right now, I have no plans of trading the tC in since it is paid off. Therefore, when I get my FR-S, it may simply be a track only car. And even then, I may change my mind several times before I actually purchase one. :P

[RYU]

Originally Posted by jmaryt

traditionally "true" sports cars have always had manual transmissions
because of the ability to offer 100% "control" over the driving performance
if you "enjoy" the "convenience" of an automatic transmission,then you should be offered that option.

It's a slow day... so let me offer up a rebuttal here. I'm not responding to your question directly. I just hear this argument often.

What do folks consider "100% control"?

Is it commanding the car to shift gears when you want it to?
- This Auto does that.

Is it not upshifting on it's own while you happily bounce of the rev-limiter?
- This Auto does that.

Is it having perfectly synch'ed rev-matches while in mid turn or trailbraking?
- This Auto does that but I concede.. there is a ton of satisfaction in getting this right in a MT. I hardly ever get it perfect unfortunately and my lines suffer as a result.

Is it mishifting and overreving your motor into the moon?
- Sorry, this Auto does NOT do that but your 6MT will if you mis-shift.

Is it having more clutch control?
- The 6AT relies on software for this (from what I read in Sport/Track mode or whatever) as opposed to your left foot doing all the controlling.

So I'm wondering what do folks really mean when they say they want "100% control". I use to have carbureted cars too but i'm so happy Electronic Engine Management and Fuel Injection is now the norm

At the end of the day every single track rat I know of wants to do everything possible to lower their lap times. It's interesting that this Auto should make that process easier and still let it shift for me on the drive home. I just want a couple Final Drive options for the 6AT and i'll be happy :happy0180:

[Jedi1]

Look at the final drive options for the Lexus IS cars. Same diff and gear set in our cars! There are options!

[fiveoneoh]

Originally Posted by Jedi1

Look at the final drive options for the Lexus IS cars. Same diff and gear set in our cars! There are options!

stupid question alert - what is final drive? yes I looked it up on the internet, something to do with the gear ratios, but could you provide a more detailed response, what it is and what advantage it provides? thanks...

[Jedi1]

The ring and pinion set in the actual rear end is the "final drive". I have seen up to a 4:30 ratio offered. Haven't found exact info on our cars to know what came in the car from the factory. I think we have a 4:10 in the car now. The switch to the 4:30 set will effectively shorten all of gear ratios and in turn make the car accelerate quicker. There are trade offs in cruising rpm being higher and probably a little mpg hit.