Considering the BRZ as a second car?

[Pilot1226]

Sure, I get what you mean. It becomes an issue of whether or not I keep what I have and get the fun car (BRZ), or do I get a new Outback or Legacy and get the better engine (3.6).

It's a tough call, because I do want a manual for the fun factor, and you simply can't get them on anything larger like the Outback or Legacy (in the US), and Subaru recently discontinued the 6MT option for the Forester.

I believe the Corolla and Camry don't have a MT option, do they? I'm sure if they are automatic only, Honda and others will be not far behind. Even Ford discontinued the MT in their Fusion.

I can't/won't justify spending around 40 on the Outback or Legacy 3.6 and another 25-30 on a BRZ, so it'll eventually come down to the shape of my Outback 2.5 that I own when it's time to make a decision. My biggest concerns are related to the CVT itself as it was relatively new (introduced in 2010), and the fact that the local dealer keeps insisting it's a maintenance-free part is... unsettling. I'd be fine with a 60k fluid change interval that costs a few hundred bucks - something to expect. I just don't want to shell out 5-8 thousand for a CVT repair, which is apparently what it costs.

While the manual has to deal with clutch linings and occasionally synchros or detente springs, you're really looking at a tenth of the cost of the repair bill compared to the CVT.

But, you can't buy what's not out there. You can't buy an Outback in a MT, for example. If the Crosstrek had a stronger engine (other than the FB20), I might even consider that with the 6MT trim. But I won't sacrifice practicality, comfort, and fun. I have the first two with my Outback; I was hoping to get the last with the BRZ.

[ermax]

It's really depressing that MT's are becoming extinct. I would have gone with a 488 if only it had a manal. Okay not really but it's mind boggling to me that just about all supercars have eliminated the MT. Yeah I Know on paper it's faster. But still, it's a damn sports car, MT should at least be an option. If you want/need a sedan your options are even more limited. When I got my FRS it was really more practical for me to get a sedan but I really wanted MT and an LSD which limits you even more. BMW M cars is about all that you can get with MT and LSD in a sedan. Didn't want to spend that much and a used FRS just happens to be dirt cheap so I sucked it up and went with the less practical car but extremely fun. I haven't even owned the car 7 months and could probably sell it an make $3K.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by ermax

It's really depressing that MT's are becoming extinct. I would have gone with a 488 if only it had a manal. Okay not really but it's mind boggling to me that just about all supercars have eliminated the MT. Yeah I Know on paper it's faster. But still, it's a damn sports car, MT should at least be an option. If you want/need a sedan your options are even more limited. When I got my FRS it was really more practical for me to get a sedan but I really wanted MT and an LSD which limits you even more. BMW M cars is about all that you can get with MT and LSD in a sedan. Didn't want to spend that much and a used FRS just happens to be dirt cheap so I sucked it up and went with the less practical car but extremely fun. I haven't even owned the car 7 months and could probably sell it an make $3K.

Yes, a MT is fun, but you can still control the shifts with a paddle shifter in modern DCT's. If you've ever driven a PDK with paddle shifters, you'd know that you have the best combination. If you want all out speed, a great automatic can shift faster than you -- and at better times.... The BRZ auto is not the best, but it works very well. Modern times require us to change our paradigms as technology advances. Computer controlled AT's are really quite good. You just have to stop living in the past.

That said, for me, a MT brings me back to the sports cars I owned back in the 60's and 70's and that nostalgia feels good. But my brain tells me I'm living in the past..... Sometimes, nostalgia wins and sometimes (damnit), my brain wins....

[OfficeWorker]

Originally Posted by ermax

It's really depressing that MT's are becoming extinct. I would have gone with a 488 if only it had a manal. Okay not really but it's mind boggling to me that just about all supercars have eliminated the MT. Yeah I Know on paper it's faster. But still, it's a damn sports car, MT should at least be an option. If you want/need a sedan your options are even more limited. When I got my FRS it was really more practical for me to get a sedan but I really wanted MT and an LSD which limits you even more. BMW M cars is about all that you can get with MT and LSD in a sedan. Didn't want to spend that much and a used FRS just happens to be dirt cheap so I sucked it up and went with the less practical car but extremely fun. I haven't even owned the car 7 months and could probably sell it an make $3K.

One of the reasons I bought the BRZ was for this reason.

It dawned on me that over the next 7-10 years (and I tend to keep cars 7-ish years), virtually everything new might, A) become hybrid or fully electric, B) be either direct drive, automatic, or semi-automatic, and/or C) incorporate a degree of autonomy that, while likely beneficial from a safety perspective, detracts from the driving experience immensely. I couldn't tell myself, "get something fun next time" because next time the definition of "something fun" might really change.

It is interesting to see how the prices of many older manual sports cars have recently started to increase...

[HKz]

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Sure, I get what you mean. It becomes an issue of whether or not I keep what I have and get the fun car (BRZ), or do I get a new Outback or Legacy and get the better engine (3.6).

It's a tough call, because I do want a manual for the fun factor, and you simply can't get them on anything larger like the Outback or Legacy (in the US), and Subaru recently discontinued the 6MT option for the Forester.

I believe the Corolla and Camry don't have a MT option, do they? I'm sure if they are automatic only, Honda and others will be not far behind. Even Ford discontinued the MT in their Fusion.

I can't/won't justify spending around 40 on the Outback or Legacy 3.6 and another 25-30 on a BRZ, so it'll eventually come down to the shape of my Outback 2.5 that I own when it's time to make a decision. My biggest concerns are related to the CVT itself as it was relatively new (introduced in 2010), and the fact that the local dealer keeps insisting it's a maintenance-free part is... unsettling. I'd be fine with a 60k fluid change interval that costs a few hundred bucks - something to expect. I just don't want to shell out 5-8 thousand for a CVT repair, which is apparently what it costs.

While the manual has to deal with clutch linings and occasionally synchros or detente springs, you're really looking at a tenth of the cost of the repair bill compared to the CVT.

But, you can't buy what's not out there. You can't buy an Outback in a MT, for example. If the Crosstrek had a stronger engine (other than the FB20), I might even consider that with the 6MT trim. But I won't sacrifice practicality, comfort, and fun. I have the first two with my Outback; I was hoping to get the last with the BRZ.

sounds like ya don't know what ya want just pay off what you got and get a dirt cheap used sports car...getting the 3.6 is pretty pointless unless ya really got the money to burn but from the sounds of it that ain't the case...something like a MR2 or Miata would be quite comparable in the fun category compared to the twins.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Yes, a MT is fun, but you can still control the shifts with a paddle shifter in modern DCT's. If you've ever driven a PDK with paddle shifters, you'd know that you have the best combination. If you want all out speed, a great automatic can shift faster than you -- and at better times.... The BRZ auto is not the best, but it works very well. Modern times require us to change our paradigms as technology advances. Computer controlled AT's are really quite good. You just have to stop living in the past.



That said, for me, a MT brings me back to the sports cars I owned back in the 60's and 70's and that nostalgia feels good. But my brain tells me I'm living in the past..... Sometimes, nostalgia wins and sometimes (damnit), my brain wins....

Button pressing is for video games. Doesn’t compare to physically using a clutch, shifter and throttle in perfect harmony. There are lots of cars with nannies that can out perform an average driver. While high tech it’s still lame letting a computer drive for you. I’m okay with being told I’m living in the past. I make very heavy use of technology in all other forms of my life. Im a software dev so I’ve written all kinds of home automation at the house all the way down to my sprinklers (because all off the shelf sprinkler controllers suck). Automated driving is where I draw the line.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by OfficeWorker

One of the reasons I bought the BRZ was for this reason.



It dawned on me that over the next 7-10 years (and I tend to keep cars 7-ish years), virtually everything new might, A) become hybrid or fully electric, B) be either direct drive, automatic, or semi-automatic, and/or C) incorporate a degree of autonomy that, while likely beneficial from a safety perspective, detracts from the driving experience immensely. I couldn't tell myself, "get something fun next time" because next time the definition of "something fun" might really change.



It is interesting to see how the prices of many older manual sports cars have recently started to increase...

Same thoughts are going through my head. I also keep cars forever. A friend of mine who used to have a car lot was just telling me that a 1996 white Type-R in perfect shape is going for 60K today. He said yellow and blacks are going for 30k. Proof that the value of raw drivers cars will go up in value. I agree with you. In the future there will be no options other than buying antiques.

[GrantedTaken]

Get the BRZ. Get a used one in nice condition. Half price!

I'd keep the 2011. Why get killed on depreciation on a new car?

Clutch is a non-issue.
If you have ANY issue with this clutch, you simply don't know how to drive a clutch.

You don't take your kids to work. You will drive the BRZX plenty.
In fact, the Outback will be the weekend car.

No need for 2nd set of wheels.
Snow = Outback
Not Snow = BRZ

[Pilot1226]

My Outback has a paddle shifter for the CVT... while it holds a specific ratio and makes it a little more fun to drive, the long term implications of driving a CVT aggressively like that has some longevity concerns.

CVT, new, is about 8,500 to replace. A clutch lining, which id expect I would need at 100k, would probably cost less than a tenth of that.

Long term I think the MT is built for durability.

In fact, the CVT longevity is probably my biggest concern about the car long term. It’s paid off and has been for years.

[beltax90]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

The investment to change the tires every year back and forth will cost you much more than to buy a second set of rims. A set of steelies is not that expensive. There is even a set of OEM ones.

Part. no: SU003-00758

Just curious, these are 16s right? how wide are these?

edit: nvm just found out they are 16 x 6.5

[Ernest72]

Originally Posted by ermax

Same thoughts are going through my head. I also keep cars forever. A friend of mine who used to have a car lot was just telling me that a 1996 white Type-R in perfect shape is going for 60K today. He said yellow and blacks are going for 30k. Proof that the value of raw drivers cars will go up in value. I agree with you. In the future there will be no options other than buying antiques.

Just be careful in your assumptions on old car prices and buy wisely. The future demand for antique cars is not guaranteed. It’s only worth what someone will pay for it.

Example is boomers who ran up muscle cars. Bought cars at 75 and 100k that now sell for half because the next generation does not love those years of cars as much.

With younger generations as they grow older they will be able to buy an electric car for relatively cheap that outperforms many cars on the road now. No guarantee they will have the nostalgia you have for old cars, expensive parts and fixing them. There will be some but perhaps not as many as now. Supply and demand will always win. Sure supply will be less, but demand might be too.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by beltax90

Just curious, these are 16s right? how wide are these?

edit: nvm just found out they are 16 x 6.5

Yes.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Ernest72

Just be careful in your assumptions on old car prices and buy wisely. The future demand for antique cars is not guaranteed. It’s only worth what someone will pay for it.

Example is boomers who ran up muscle cars. Bought cars at 75 and 100k that now sell for half because the next generation does not love those years of cars as much.

With younger generations as they grow older they will be able to buy an electric car for relatively cheap that outperforms many cars on the road now. No guarantee they will have the nostalgia you have for old cars, expensive parts and fixing them. There will be some but perhaps not as many as now. Supply and demand will always win. Sure supply will be less, but demand might be too.

so the love of something is directly related to how much money one has in their bank account?

[HaXx]

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Hi all,

I frequent the LegacyGT and Outback.org forums - this is my first post here.

so many things, where to start. first off welcome to this side of the subaru/scion forums. My mom literally just traded in a '07 Outback 2.5XT we had for 12 years in maunal for a crosstrek. I can say from driving the OBXT, if you get a 3.8R, its not going to give you any thrills, doesnt change that fact that you are still riding in a vanilla wagon that nobody notices, except for nerds like myself. its faster, but i drive how i drive, regardless of what im in. if you were in an AMG wagon, or a F-Type shooting brake on the other hand, thatd turn heads... And a WRX? my love for them dwindled after owning an actual sports car, the BRZ, I just look at all 4-door sedans the same now... meh.

as far as the BRZ utility, its not god awful. did you know you can fit four mounted wheels and tires in it with the back seat down?(nobody can sit in them anyway). 4-5 bags of groceries can fit in the trunk, and if need be, fold the seats down and fit a full load. after driving an outback for 10 years prior, im not offended by the brz's utility contrary to everyone moaning and groaning.

transmission
get a 6MT, its not rocket science, youll be brushed up in two days. give yourself more credit man.

Snow? you can drive the car in snow all day, no problem. its a driver thing, anyways, not a car thing. the driver is ultimately the one that decides whether or not trouble happens, but 100% get a winter wheels setup, they can be had for 4-500$ on the forum. at the end of the day, be like a normal person, if its supposed to snow four feet, maybe head to the grocery before it starts. i know, its a weird thought, i used to be oblivious to the weather driving a outback for 10 years.

Tires? i dont car what you are on in the summer, but you need winters in winter. Notchy transmission? get over yourself... its a car. your going to hop in a brz and be like "hey, this drives like a car, just like any other car on the road, its a car... what was all the fuss about? I am in a car, that is driving like a car, imagine that"

maintenance
if you get a M/T 2013 or 2014 you will need to change its throwout bearing.

I purchased a one owner 35k mile 2013 BRZ that was supercharged, paid $15k. it had Enkeis, and a catback exhaust. its not as complicated as others might make it seem. get what you want to get. i did and im so happy i didnt listen to everyone saying "eww ohh boo, you need a normal persons car like a wrx" well it turns out that i dont.