Newbie Manual Driving Help Needed

[Braces]

I never see it discussed, but aggressive engine braking in manuals adds to clutch wear.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Braces

I never see it discussed, but aggressive engine braking in manuals adds to clutch wear.

It's implied - same as dumping the clutch.

[Want.FR-S]

Originally Posted by executor

correct me if i'm wrong but i'm pretty sure that by not adding gas while moving out the clutch; you will also wear out your clutch

So let's think about this for a moment: the clutch is connecting two plates to transmit power/torque from engine to transmission. One plate is connected to the engine while the other one is connecting to the input shaft of the transmission. When you press the clutch, these two plates are disconnect. When you release the clutch, these plates are connected. When you release the clutch to the grab point, that is where these two plates start to connect.

So far, so good.

Now, let just say if on a flat ground and the car is stopped and not moving. The clutch is pressed (disconnect), brake is release and you shift to 1st gear. The gear is connected to the input shaft, which is idle because the car is not moving. The clutch plate on the engine side is spinning at idling RPM (assume it is 800 rpm for warmed up car). Now you release the clutch to the grabbing point, those two plates, one spinning at 800 RPM (or 13.3 rev per second) while the other is stationary, are trying to connect together. When you gently release the clutch to make connection, these two plates connects (grab) and the engine sends power to the input shaft, which sends the power to the transmission, and get the car moves. So your car moves.

So far so good, this is just the basics of how a car moves, right?

Observe the statements above, where does the *wear* of a clutch come in? That happens when two plates that are running different revs are trying to connect and sync the revs. To do so, the material on the plates need friction to sync the rev. This causes friction and heat, and the material would be lost gradually.

To reduce the clutch wear and make a smooth transition, it is the best when connecting these two plates they are already in sync, or very small difference, in terms of their respective revolutions.

This, IMO, is the fundamental theory of rev matching. The idea of rev matching is to rev the engine revolution with the revolution of input shaft that is connected to the gears in transmission and the driving wheels. It is all happening on the clutch.

So, if we go back to our original situation: flat ground, car stationary, clutch in, 1st gear, no brake. Whether adding gas or not, you are wearing out the clutch. The key question is by how much. Adding gas before connecting the plates, the plate on the engine side is at higher RPM while the input shaft is idle. The difference in rev is higher, more wear. Not adding gas before connection, idle rev, less difference, less wear.

In summary, your statement is correct in one way: not adding gas while releasing clutch, you will wear out the clutch. However, by doing this it will wear out less than that if you add gas while connecting those two plates.

In other words, that statement is correct but not effective. Clutch is a wear item, and their mileage depends on how it is used. If you ease on it, it can last longer. If you keep dumping the clutch on start up, it will need to be replace sooner. It is as simple as people already said below.

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

IIRC, the clutch is a wear item (like brake pads).
Regardless of how you use them, as long as you use them, they will wear out.
The question is which method can spare the most unnecessary wear and tear.

Originally Posted by Suberman

....
Reasonable driving tends to wear out a clutch around 80,000 miles these days.

Dump and run acceleration runs can shorten clutch life considerably.

The key to remember is the clutch doesn't wear at all until you push the clutch pedal. The more efficiently and smoothly you drive, especially on a track, the longer your clutch lasts.

I know skilled but conservative drivers who get well over 100,000 miles out of one clutch.

[FRiSson]

It will always be a little slow to start, that's because the car has very little torque below 2,000 rpm. An automatic can compensate for that. So can you, but it will take a while to find the sweet spot to drop the clutch.

[Manic]

Originally Posted by Danny86

My car turned off on me 3 times as I was leaving the Toyota dealership :facepalm: the look on the sales reps at Toyota was priceless. It's not my first time driving a manual but definitely the first time in a long time. Also, since my sales rep didn't explain the reverse lock mechanism I thought first was reverse and kept putting it into 3rd. I quickly got the hang of it though.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Funny story, pretty much the same thing happened to me. However, I was having issues because when I learned to drive stick (8 years ago), my uncle's classic beetle had a jacked up gear shift, so when in neutral, it was constantly leaning to the left. Therefore, when putting it in first, you just pushed directly forward. When I applied this to my 86, third gear over and over.

I also didn't know about the reverse lock out... which got me wedged awkwardly in the middle of an intersection with no way to back up.

[fatherfork]

Short version:

Downshifting for engine braking without rev matching causes the most clutch wear; downshifting for engine braking with rev matching causes less clutch wear; engine braking without downshifting causes no clutch wear.

Long version:

Originally Posted by Braces

I never see it discussed, but aggressive engine braking in manuals adds to clutch wear.

If you downshift and don't rev match, yes, but the quoted statement without context might as well be completely wrong. Letting off the gas while staying in the same gear causes the car to engine brake naturally with zero clutch wear. I guess the issue in the statement lies in the ambiguous use of the word "aggressive".

What is probably meant is that using the clutch to bring the engine to speed when downshifting instead of rev matching will cause significant clutch wear, while rev matching will cause less. Leaving the car in the current gear and letting the engine slow you down naturally is still engine braking, but causes no wear on the clutch.

I keep seeing this point mentioned on this forum and nobody ever makes completely clear statements, which I'll bet causes confusion for new manual drivers.

[Captain Stall]

Originally Posted by Manic

I also didn't know about the reverse lock out... which got me wedged awkwardly in the middle of an intersection with no way to back up.

Sounds like the salesperson did a terrible job. You're lucky no one got hurt.

[Manic]

Originally Posted by Captain Stall

Sounds like the salesperson did a terrible job. You're lucky no one got hurt.

Definitely. I was pulling up on the knob trying to get it into reverse like how I assumed it work, but I was just knudging myself forward in first. Luckily, there were only a few cars, and the worst it got was some honking and what not.

I decided to pull over into a parking lot as quickly as I could so I could review the manual. Once there, I practiced some starts, stops, and reverses... all with fairly poor clutch releases so there was some slight wheel spin and screaching. Did this for about a half hour. When I finally felt comfortable enough to make it home, I proceeded to leave the parking lot. As I did, however, I saw a sign that read... "Buena Park Police Station."

So... I was essentially burning out, revving loud, and making a shit ton of noise in general... in a police station parking lot.

[Jaywest717]

Originally Posted by Manic

I also didn't know about the reverse lock out... which got me wedged awkwardly in the middle of an intersection with no way to back up.

Haha. Something similar happened to me except I was in a residential neighborhood parked in front of my mother's house facing the curb. Thought I had it in reverse, but it was in 1st. Stepped on the gas...car ended up in the yard. I made one of those "nothing to see here" faces and whistled to myself quietly as I slowly backed out of the yard and drove away...

Clutch control feels much better now. I can even keep my car stationary on an incline without using the regular brack or ebrake, but with the clutch alone (Only did this once though to test it out!) I love driving this car!!

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Jaywest717

Clutch control feels much better now. I can even keep my car stationary on an incline without using the regular brack or ebrake, but with the clutch alone (Only did this once though to test it out!) I love driving this car!!

I highly do NOT recommend this. A lot of newbies think this is the mastery of stick shift and wind up toasting their clutches this way. No one is questioning your skills, just be safe, pull up the E-brake and launch properly.

I have been scared shitless in downtown Toronto parking lots (looking at you Air Canada Centre) where an expensive ass Porsche (obviously non-PDK) is in front of me on a 20 foot ramp and we're stuck because everyone is trying to get out after the game. I'm smart enough to give him almost 10 feet and the sunvabitch rolls back almost 10 feet. All the while I hear him roaring the engine and I have NOWHERE TO GO.

Please do yourself and other fellow drivers a favour and just pull the E-brake.

A perfect driver from the outside just looks like he moves forwards. No weird revving or rolling back.

Rolling back = EPIC ULTIMATE FAIL.

[Jaywest717]

Originally Posted by Frost

I highly do NOT recommend this. A lot of newbies think this is the mastery of stick shift and wind up toasting their clutches this way. No one is questioning your skills, just be safe, pull up the E-brake and launch properly.

I have been scared shitless in downtown Toronto parking lots (looking at you Air Canada Centre) where an expensive ass Porsche (obviously non-PDK) is in front of me on a 20 foot ramp and we're stuck because everyone is trying to get out after the game. I'm smart enough to give him almost 10 feet and the sunvabitch rolls back almost 10 feet. All the while I hear him roaring the engine and I have NOWHERE TO GO.

Please do yourself and other fellow drivers a favour and just pull the E-brake.

A perfect driver from the outside just looks like he moves forwards. No weird revving or rolling back.

Rolling back = EPIC ULTIMATE FAIL.

No no no. Let me elaborate. I'm on the brake while waiting on the hill and let the clutch out just enough to feel the car's momentum change and then I let off the brake and the car stays stationary without me having to immediately step on the gas. The whole purpose was to see if I can keep my car from rolling back at all. Then I gradually step on the gas and move forward. I NEVER let my car roll back even so much as an inch (or I try not to, anyway). Too many people like to ride your bumper around here and others love talking on their cellphones. I don't trust any of them.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Frost

I highly do NOT recommend this. A lot of newbies think this is the mastery of stick shift and wind up toasting their clutches this way. No one is questioning your skills, just be safe, pull up the E-brake and launch properly.

On most slopes though, once you have some practice starting out, you can usually just accelerate away from a stop without either toasting the hell out of your clutch or using the handbrake. It's not something you should explicitly practice a lot, since usually practicing it will wear your clutch, but once you get used to quickly and smoothly transitioning from the brake to the gas as you release the clutch on starts, hills don't really require any change in technique. The time it takes from getting off the brake to when you are rolling forward is too short to be rolling back much.

(It can take a while before you are comfortable enough to do this though, and as I said, I wouldn't go out and practice it a bunch. Just drive stick shift consistently, and eventually, it'll be completely natural to you. I've been driving almost exclusively stick shift for around 7 years now - I don't own a car with an auto, and eventually, it becomes second nature)

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Jaywest717

No no no. Let me elaborate. I'm on the brake while waiting on the hill and let the clutch out just enough to feel the car's momentum change and then I let off the brake and the car stays stationary without me having to immediately step on the gas. The whole purpose was to see if I can keep my car from rolling back at all. Then I gradually step on the gas and move forward. I NEVER let my car roll back even so much as an inch (or I try not to, anyway). Too many people like to ride your bumper around here and others love talking on their cellphones. I don't trust any of them.

This doesn't work on anything more than a gentle slope. You may think it works but it doesn't. I agree with Frost, use the handbrake, that's why it is a handbrake.

In many countries you would fail your driving test using the "inertia" method.

Your car ALWAYS rolls backwards it is just a matter of how far. Try this inertia technique in winter and prepare to touch up the paint on your rear bumper a lot.

[Teclis]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Nope. In fact most North Americans never even get into a car with a manual shift during their entire life, let alone try to drive one.

Soon the rest of the World will catch up......8-)

Well when you live in a place, with mostly turns, and mountains ect, and almost no highways, manual is perfect for fun

So "catching up" not for me, I have driven some AT, and I find it boring, ofc I can see that it's great when living in a city, with lot of trafic ect. but out here, no way

But eitherway you North Americans are lucky, with the price for an FRS Here in Norway the GT86 starts at 76K dollars..

Cheers