Is weight no longer an issue in sports cars?

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

In the real world torque matters. Track fast and street slow don't cut it.

This is very subjective,

some people like torqy engines (I guess most people actually), and some (like me) like to rev the engine out and get the power at the high end and enjoy the engine singing.

This is my opinion but no torque does not compensate for heavy car.

If anything you also have to keep in mind this torque is not coming out of nowhere. Moving a heavy car with lots of torque should drink more gas since you're moving larger mass in higher acceleration. Again not good.

Also, I personally really hate FI. I had a 2016 WRX an I will never go back there. For me, it has the driving characteristics of a truck. Sluggish response but gobs of torque and power when it does come on. Not my style of fun driving.

It's the classic 911 GT3 or 911 Turbo S. I'm a GT3 guy.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

It doesn't make much sense to compare the Alpine A110 with the BRZ. The Alpine is a 2-seater. You can compare it with the MX-5 RF and in fact the Alpine is not much lighter with all its "premium" materials.

Good point here

I might add, the MX-5 can also get FI with little weight gain and then it's directly comparable to the Alpine.

But honestly I do think the Apline is a fair bit higher on the exotic scale.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

That's like saying Amps are better at turning an electric motor than Watts. It makes no sense.

I think people who don't understand the physical relationship between power and torque use the terms incorrectly to describe the difference between engines that deliver power at low speed versus those that deliver equivalent power at high speed.


It goes back to what Spuds is saying about how casual drivers are not accustomed to high-rpm torque curves. I remember distinctly the first time our school's inaugural FSAE team took its very first car out for the very first time. None of the drivers rode bikes and were painfully short shifting the 600 cc GSX engine. In a fit of frustration I squeezed myself into it and said "Guys, watch." I barely made it into second for the whole course we had set.


When I got out the guys were all nodding. They still had a rough time getting comfortable with it.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

If you hate weight, need rear seats, and want more power, buy a 911. If you hate weight, need truly usable rear seats, and want more power, buy a... burrito?

Wait wait wait!

The reason that this whole discussion was triggered in the first place was that I was so dismayed that the 911 (one of my all time favorite cars) is now a very heavy car!

2020 911 992 Carrera 4S (source) (1582 kg) (3487 lbs).

2016 Mazda CX-5 SUV fully loaded (my SUV) (source)(1628 kg)(3589 lbs)

Granted yeah the 911 is in another stratosphere of performance and luxury and build quality and as Tcoat and others on here details, it's pretty much unavoidable but sad nonetheless.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

Yeah which is why an Elise lost in a track battle to a Mercedes and Porsche SUV way back in the day in an evo magazine track battle. Badly. Torque overcomes weight quite a bit more effectively than horsepower

It's not really all about numbers

A lot of SUVs today will run close to spots cars in terms of numbers.

Today you buy sports cars for the fun factor. No one is in any hurry to get anywhere and buying a fast car will not save you that much time. It will only get you more speeding tickets.

You buy sports cars for the fun factor and to my knowledge, no SUV can give you that fun factor a true sports car can.

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

Wait wait wait!

The reason that this whole discussion was triggered in the first place was that I was so dismayed that the 911 (one of my all time favorite cars) is now a very heavy car!
.

Yes. To make money you have to make your biggest market happy. For the 911 that is the US market. Americans in general don't want a true lightweight sports car, especially the guy who buys a new 911 now, they want a luxury car that goes fast.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

Yeah which is why an Elise lost in a track battle to a Mercedes and Porsche SUV way back in the day in an evo magazine track battle. Badly. Torque overcomes weight quite a bit more effectively than horsepower

So now we're comparing SUV's to sports cars....

As I mentioned earlier my 911 TT was faster than my '73 911s however the S was just so much more engaging from a driver standpoint which is the point of this thread.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Yes. To make money you have to make your biggest market happy. For the 911 that is the US market. Americans in general don't want a true lightweight sports car, especially the guy who buys a new 911 now, they want a luxury car that goes fast.

yeah this is an unavoidable fact and can never blame them for this

it's just sad to see it happen to such an iconic car

I hope there will be a next generation FT86 to fill this gap left behind, doubtful as it might be.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

Wait wait wait!

The reason that this whole discussion was triggered in the first place was that I was so dismayed that the 911 (one of my all time favorite cars) is now a very heavy car!

3,142 lbs for a Carrera T. 3153 for the base Carrera. "Oh, I want the 4WD version of a sports car! Oh no, it's heavy!"

So if you have the balls and the means, you can always get a base Carrera. With tax, it'll be just about 100k.

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Torque and horsepower share a linear relationship with RPM. The whole torque is better than power argument is perpetuated by muscle car idiots who like engines whose ability to make power is crippled after 4000rpm.

Downshift or upshift and drive the car in it's powerband. That goes for any car.

Both of these cars have a serious torque dip, but only one gets ragged on for it:

Horsepower doesn't exist on it's own. It's a calculation. Torque is real regardless of what rpm its produced

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Guys I'm not talking about driver involvement. The question of the thread was "is weight no longer an issue in sports cars?" Absolutely it isn't. You've got heavy ass cars with some phenomenal performance

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

3,142 lbs for a Carrera T. 3153 for the base Carrera. "Oh, I want the 4WD version of a sports car! Oh no, it's heavy!"

So if you have the balls and the means, you can always get a base Carrera. With tax, it'll be just about 100k.

Where are you getting these numbers from?

I was talking about the newly released 911 992 and as far as I know they only released numbers for the S and the 4S. Or maybe you're not following?

So I don't see what kind of point you're trying to make here...

also I don't see why you have to drag balls and means into this discussion

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

Guys I'm not talking about driver involvement. The question of the thread was "is weight no longer an issue in sports cars?" Absolutely it isn't. You've got heavy ass cars with some phenomenal performance

but you're taking out driver involvement out of sports cars now.

I certainly wouldn't want that in a sports car

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

I don't see why you have to drag balls and means into this discussion

It's optional.