Spun Rod Bearing Warranty Service

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by CoolHandMoss

The first linked thread (at least the first) shows clear evidence of sealant blocking oil flow down stream of the oil pump.

The rod bearing gets fed oil from that main bearing where the blockage is depicted. That's why there's a hole in the crank where it rides in that main bearing. A partial blockage of oil entering the main bearing could allow enough oil to the main bearing to be lubricated but not enough excess pressure to feed the rod bearing sufficiently.

There are many other examples but some of them are buried in threads with different titles. There were also many threads that were deleted at the different OP's request after they decided to go down the legal road. Unfortunately those ones never came back to us with results or findings other than the fact that there were chunks of silicone in the oil. If we remove the ones where low oil levels or a lack of oil changes may have been the issue (we only hear one side of the story here so in at least a few cases it has to be true) then we are left with the blocked channels as virtually the only identified and confirmed cause.
To be very clear I feel there could be other factors at work here but the overwhelming evidence that we have available still indicates a problem with the sealant applied to some cars.
People like to try to use my number of posts against me as if it is a bad thing somehow but for every post I have made I have read at least 100 and actually remember what I read.
Should anybody come up with some evidence to support their theory that there is an oil pressure issue in the stock engine I am more than willing to listen but at this point I am sticking with the known and well documented failure mode of blocked channels in a very small subset of the cars. I am convinced that this is a manufacturing defect and not an engineering flaw and that the condition has been identified and corrected at the assembly level. No matter how good the QA of a manufacturer is some defects make it through the system so we may see the odd failure still occur in the later model years but that does not make them the norm nor even expected. Unfortunately there is not much short of a full tear down and inspection that can avoid the failure and since they have always been sudden and catastrophic they grab a lot of attention so appear to be more common than they really are.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by CoolHandMoss

The first linked thread (at least the first) shows clear evidence of sealant blocking oil flow down stream of the oil pump.

The rod bearing gets fed oil from that main bearing where the blockage is depicted. That's why there's a hole in the crank where it rides in that main bearing. A partial blockage of oil entering the main bearing could allow enough oil to the main bearing to be lubricated but not enough excess pressure to feed the rod bearing sufficiently.

That is the only place I could find that could be impacted by packing but even if you had blockage like in that photo it would have little to no impact on oiling. Hold on and I will explain my reasoning.

On the way out the door to head to work I took a few really bad photos of my old block (notice no packing blockage on my block like the post you are referring to) to show the full path of the oil with regards to the rod bearings. I also made a really crap diagram showing what a total blockage.

First photo shows the timing cover with the oil gallery covers removed. You can see the oil path from the pickup to the pump to the filter and then to the block. You can see the main oil rail into the block is the first output after the filter.


Second photo shows the hole where the oil leaves the timing cover and into the block. The red arrow show the path the oil takes from the main rail to the crank main journal. I have the other end of this oil rail open so I was able to put a flashlight back there to show that it's a hole that runs from one end to the other. Notice that at this stage it's still a completely sealed system with no packing in sight.


Third image shows the main rail running all the way from one end of the block to the other. Notice the bulge down there. That is the rail. There is a cap at one end that can be removed so you can look through and clean up any contamination. The main journal on the left of this image pumps into the crank and then comes back out of the crank to feed rod #1. The main journal in the center pumps into the crank and is then split between rod #2 and #3. The journal on the far right goes into the crank and back out to rod #4.


The last image is my super skills in GIMP. It is a cross cut of the block showing the main oil rail at the bottom right and then an oil passage running up to the main journal. I drew a red line which represents a 100% blockage by packing. You can see the oil comes in and floods all the way around the crank. If the packing was blocking the oil hole that feeds the journal then you would have a problem. But it would be literally impossible to stack enough packing on the block to have it completely surround the crank and block the oil hole.


The only time packing would have an impact on oiling that main would be as the crank rotates and is in perfect alignment with the packing. The thing is the crank has two oil holes 180deg apart. While one hole is blocked by packing the other end is open. The whole journal is under pressure. The crank would be getting pressure 100% of its rotation.

I still am not convinced that packing is the real problem. I think it's a theory that wasn't well thought out. I had mine torn apart for 2 months. Didn't want to rush into rebuilding it because I wanted a full understanding of it because I don't want it to spin another bearing on me. I found nothing I can change to solve the problem outside of actual machine work which I am not capable of. So I've accepted that I'm not going to own this car as long as I originally planned.

Edit: I noticed I had the feed from the timing cover to the block wrong so I updated my images. In my image of the side of the block you see two o-rings. The oil feeds into the o-ring at the top then goes down to the hole bellow. The o-ring bellow isn't actually an oil feed. The timing tensioner actually seals off that hole.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There are many other examples but some of them are buried in threads with different titles. There were also many threads that were deleted at the different OP's request after they decided to go down the legal road. Unfortunately those ones never came back to us with results or findings other than the fact that there were chunks of silicone in the oil. If we remove the ones where low oil levels or a lack of oil changes may have been the issue (we only hear one side of the story here so in at least a few cases it has to be true) then we are left with the blocked channels as virtually the only identified and confirmed cause.
To be very clear I feel there could be other factors at work here but the overwhelming evidence that we have available still indicates a problem with the sealant applied to some cars.
People like to try to use my number of posts against me as if it is a bad thing somehow but for every post I have made I have read at least 100 and actually remember what I read.
Should anybody come up with some evidence to support their theory that there is an oil pressure issue in the stock engine I am more than willing to listen but at this point I am sticking with the known and well documented failure mode of blocked channels in a very small subset of the cars. I am convinced that this is a manufacturing defect and not an engineering flaw and that the condition has been identified and corrected at the assembly level. No matter how good the QA of a manufacturer is some defects make it through the system so we may see the odd failure still occur in the later model years but that does not make them the norm nor even expected. Unfortunately there is not much short of a full tear down and inspection that can avoid the failure and since they have always been sudden and catastrophic they grab a lot of attention so appear to be more common than they really are.

I really hope you are right for the sake of others. Mine had no evidence to back up the failure. No packing in the main that feeds #4 (I spun #3 anyways) and no packing in the pan, filter or pickup strainer. I opened up every feed and found no contamination. I also took the gears apart and found no contamination in there. Lots of bearing flakes in the pan but surprisingly none of it made its way to the rest of the engine. There were some flakes in the pickup though.

[ermax]

One other thing to note about the packing. The packing on the timing cover isn't the packing that can protrude into the #5 main journal. The block halves are packed together too and that is the packing that makes it's way into the #5 main. Which is why I find it odd that people have their covers repacked and then spin a bearing shortly after.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

I really hope you are right for the sake of others. Mine had no evidence to back up the failure. No packing in the main that feeds #4 (I spun #3 anyways) and no packing in the pan, filter or pickup strainer. I opened up every feed and found no contamination. I also took the gears apart and found no contamination in there. Lots of bearing flakes in the pan but surprisingly none of it made its way to the rest of the engine. There were some flakes in the pickup though.

Yep. From all your descriptions yours falls into the almost microscopic sub category of "I don't know what the hell happened". It was used so the history is an unknown of course but given the sudden failure it can be pretty hard to say the problem was already there. I do not recall reading anything where somebody pulled the engine apart and identified an issue where the bearing appeared damaged but still working. It is sort of an all is good until it is not situation.
I always feel bad about your failure since some of your very first posts here were expressing concern about the weird noises and we all told you not to worry!

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yep. From all your descriptions yours falls into the almost microscopic sub category of "I don't know what the hell happened". It was used so the history is an unknown of course but given the sudden failure it can be pretty hard to say the problem was already there. I do not recall reading anything where somebody pulled the engine apart and identified an issue where the bearing appeared damaged but still working. It is sort of an all is good until it is not situation.
I always feel bad about your failure since some of your very first posts here were expressing concern about the weird noises and we all told you not to worry!

Well actually the other three rod bearings looked really bad too. Bearings really shouldn't wear if there is oil pressure. The wear I had was clearly from oil issues. If it was something else like detonation you would see wear only on the load surface but all my bearings had wear across the whole surface. It was just a matter of time before any of them would have gone. The problem isn't unknown. It's oil starvation. The unknown is why is there oil starvation. I just don't think it's the packing. If you rule out people on 1qt of oil and the packing you're right back to asking yourself, what causes the oil starvation.

Don't feel bad about saying the sounds were normal though. After the rebuild it no longer had the knocky sound between 2800-3800 but after about 100 miles my knocky sound and exhaust leak were back. I've been fighting this stupid leak from day one. The way the knocky sound and leak sound came back at the same time has me thinking the knocky sound may simply be related to this leak. I've replaced all the gaskets multiple times. It goes away until it's heat cycled a few times and then the leak is back. I just need to take it to a shop that has the tools to sniff out the leak.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

Well actually the other three rod bearings looked really bad too. Bearings really shouldn't wear if there is oil pressure. The wear I had was clearly from oil issues. If it was something else like detonation you would see wear only on the load surface but all my bearings had wear across the whole surface. It was just a matter of time before any of them would have gone. The problem isn't unknown. It's oil starvation. The unknown is why is there oil starvation. I just don't think it's the packing. If you rule out people on 1qt of oil and the packing you're right back to asking yourself, what causes the oil starvation.

Don't feel bad about saying the sounds were normal though. After the rebuild it no longer had the knocky sound between 2800-3800 but after about 100 miles my knocky sound and exhaust leak were back. I've been fighting this stupid leak from day one. The way the knocky sound and leak sound came back at the same time has me thinking the knocky sound may simply be related to this leak. I've replaced all the gaskets multiple times. It goes away until it's heat cycled a few times and then the leak is back. I just need to take it to a shop that has the tools to sniff out the leak.

My issue with arbitrarily dismissing the blockage theory is that it is a know factor. It does not have to directly block the affected bearing channel but anyplace within the system. Even a partial blockage anyplace in the system is going to change the routing of the oil. As we saw from the service manual specs these engines do run what seems to be an abnormally low pressure at low RPM (whether that is bad or not is not up to us to decide since it is the manufacturer spec that they felt acceptable for this engine) so even a slight blockage anyplace up or downstream from the bearings could impede the flow to the point it staves them.
Another common point mentioned in the failures is when they seem to happen. Such comments as "I had just hit the highway from an on ramp" or I was accelerating from a stop" are very common in the failure threads. In fact the onramp comment was so common that at one point I was pretty convinced that the failures were the result of long(ish) curves pushing the oil to one side. Gave up on that one though since we see almost no failures on the track where that would be a bigger issue.
What I think happens is that the sudden increase in pressure pushes the silicone into a channel someplace which in turn causes the system to stop moving the volume of oil needed even though the actual pressure may be fine. This of course does not help explain those circumstances where no debris is found in the channels.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

My issue with arbitrarily dismissing the blockage theory is that it is a know factor

There has been known blockage but that doesn't make it an actual factor. You seem to have glossed right over my post explaining the facts about how the oil routes. Blockage in other areas, the heads for example would only improve flow to the block because it's first in line.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

What I think happens is that the sudden increase in pressure pushes the silicone into a channel someplace which in turn causes the system to stop moving the volume of oil needed even though the actual pressure may be fine. This of course does not help explain those circumstances where no debris is found in the channels.

Having put my hands on this stuff I can tell you it's extremely elastic. You have to pull it inches before it will snap off. But again, even if it did break off it would go into the pan and possibly be picked up in the pickup screen and block all flow. Has anyone reported packing stuck in the pickup? There are no other galleries that the packing is even remotely close to. If packing got in an actual gallery it would have to pass the screen and filter first (imposible).

Download the BRZ manual, it's easier to search and has vector images for more detail. Then search for 1217 and you will find all the packing instructions. You will notice none of the packing comes near oil supply lines. Only the block halves have packing in one place that could make it into the #5 main but as I said in my other post I doubt this would impact flow.

[Ultramaroon]

Hadn’t considered this. I’m trying to picture where in the engine carbon would build up in the oil system though. My engine was remarkably clean considering it had 86k on it.

Sub 100K is brand new in my book. All of the engines I've dug into had at least a little bit of crap that settled into the hard corners. That stuff all needed to be cleaned out before reassembly.


I'm probably overstating the issue.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

There has been known blockage but that doesn't make it an actual factor. You seem to have glossed right over my post explaining the facts about how the oil routes. Blockage in other areas, the heads for example would only improve flow to the block because it's first in line.



Having put my hands on this stuff I can tell you it's extremely elastic. You have to pull it inches before it will snap off. But again, even if it did break off it would go into the pan and possibly be picked up in the pickup screen and block all flow. Has anyone reported packing stuck in the pickup? There are no other galleries that the packing is even remotely close to. If packing got in an actual gallery it would have to pass the screen and filter first (imposible).

Download the BRZ manual, it's easier to search and has vector images for more detail. Then search for 1217 and you will find all the packing instructions. You will notice none of the packing comes near oil supply lines. Only the block halves have packing in one place that could make it into the #5 main but as I said in my other post I doubt this would impact flow.

Nah dude I am not glossing over anything. Your assertion that there is no way the sealant can get into the channel is not correct.


Starting at 2:00

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Nah dude I am not glossing over anything. Your assertion that there is no way the sealant can get into the channel is not correct.


Starting at 2:00

With all due respect to MRT, there is no way packing is going to make it from the pan, through the screen, through the filter and into the oil galleries. It would end up restring flow, but not because it's in galleries. Thats if it even breaks loose. You did watch how hard he pulled to get that packing to snap off didn't you? Think about this too. You say an increase in pressure may break packing loose. Do you really think the timing cover is under pressure? No, it isn't. The galeries are under pressure and there is no packing close to any galeries that are under pressure.

Put your thinking cap on for a bit. Stop trying to be right and really think it through.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

With all due respect to MRT, there is no way packing is going to make it from the pan, through the screen, through the filter and into the oil galleries. It would end up restring flow, but not because it's in galleries. Thats if it even breaks loose. You did watch how hard he pulled to get that packing to snap off didn't you? Think about this too. You say an increase in pressure may break packing loose. Do you really think the timing cover is under pressure? No, it isn't. The galeries are under pressure and there is no packing close to any galeries that are under pressure.

Put your thinking cap on for a bit. Stop trying to be right and really think it through.

As they say there is more used than just the pan. He goes into detail on how it can break lose and get in the channels.
Not a matter of trying to be right. I have a theory and stand by it just as you do yours. Your disbelief and total dismissal of the points such as laid out in the video do not make it wrong.
You keep referring to the silicone that is still bonded. I will try to find the pictures but what people have found was loose chunks of the stuff all through the system. It is not just the oil pan.

[Tcoat]

Nice pic of an blocked gallery.
Will this not interfere with circulation?


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=65661&page=5 post #67





Still on my quest for more pics of the loose stuff blocking parts of the system.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Nice pic of an blocked gallery.
Will this not interfere with circulation?





Still on my quest for more pics of the loose stuff blocking parts of the system.

That is a return line from the head. Mine had a little packing in the same place. I'm not entirely sure how much impact that would have on overall flow though.