Spun Rod Bearing Warranty Service

[mrg666]

FYI, MRT videos are very good and they are discussing the oil pump design of FA20, in case you have not seen yet.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOtYl2k6abI[/ame]

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am not saying it was not an oiling issue. I am saying that the oiling issue was a manufacturing issue on a small subgroup of 2013 cars. Ermax's repeated statement is that it is a low pressure issue that applies to all years. There is zero data to support that stand and using one racing build thread to support it is false.

Where is your data to backup that there was a manufacturing issue on a subgroup of 2013s? If you’re going to demand I have data then you need it too. The reason I suspect all years will be effected is the newer builds aren’t providing any more pressure than the old ones. If these cars were driven as many miles as your average Civic I think we would see way more reports. When there are so many people out there with 4 year old cars with 20k on them your just not going to see reports in mass numbers. Also, not every owner is on this forum and not everyone on this form bothers posting when they have a problem. The OP is a good example. He only posted about spinning a bearing after Toyota failed to get his car back on the road without several visits. Had they fixed it properly the first time we may have never heard from him. I just don’t think we can know for sure the volume simply off this forum. The only fact we have is they do tend to spin them, typically 3 or 4 (same as the FA20DIT) and the newer years haven’t changed with regards to oiling. Tcoat, if I am missing something somewhere that says there have been changes to oiling, please point me in that direction.

[CoolHandMoss]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am not saying it was not an oiling issue. I am saying that the oiling issue was a manufacturing issue on a small subgroup of 2013 cars. Ermax's repeated statement is that it is a low pressure issue that applies to all years. There is zero data to support that stand and using one racing build thread to support it is false.

I'm also curious about the data here. I haven't seen any mention of changes to the oiling system for any model years. Are you talking about the return paths blocked by timing cover sealant? Just curious. I have no basis on which to argue.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by CoolHandMoss

I'm also curious about the data here. I haven't seen any mention of changes to the oiling system for any model years. Are you talking about the return paths blocked by timing cover sealant? Just curious. I have no basis on which to argue.

I’ve never seen anything official about blockage. I’ve only seen Tcoat say blockage was a problem. I’d love to see where that theory originated. I’ve asked him for a reference before but he didn’t provide one. I have a friend who is the service manager at a dealer who looked into a TSB related to packing seal blockage and he couldn’t find anything. Before I rebuilt mine I wanted to see if they had any recommendations on doing the packing. I just went with what the service manual says to do.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am not saying it was not an oiling issue. I am saying that the oiling issue was a manufacturing issue on a small subgroup of 2013 cars. Ermax's repeated statement is that it is a low pressure issue that applies to all years. There is zero data to support that stand and using one racing build thread to support it is false.

I dont think it's only 2013s that had the issues. There are multiple threads about too much sealant blocking passages and that spans all years. That's just one of the known "common" problems.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by ermax

I’ve never seen anything official about blockage. I’ve only seen Tcoat say blockage was a problem. I’d love to see where that theory originated. I’ve asked him for a reference before but he didn’t provide one. I have a friend who is the service manager at a dealer who looked into a TSB related to packing seal blockage and he couldn’t find anything. Before I rebuilt mine I wanted to see if they had any recommendations on doing the packing. I just went with what the service manual says to do.

Never seen a TSB, but there are quite a few threads where on teardown people note the blockages.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Never seen a TSB, but there are quite a few threads where on teardown people note the blockages.

I’d love to see some of these threads. When I was working on mine a was looking for any details I could so I knew what areas to watch out for when doing my packing. I found nothing but people talking about how they heard about blockage but no actual specifics.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by ermax

I’d love to see some of these threads. When I was working on mine a was looking for any details I could so I knew what areas to watch out for when doing my packing. I found nothing but people talking about how they heard about blockage but no actual specifics.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107959

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121863

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=133

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107959

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121863

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=133

There are a few more but I am not even going to bother. People want so badly for there to be an engineering issue that will plague all the cars that nothing will convince them otherwise.

Some of the issues were no doubt brought on by the owners themselves but heaven forbid we should believe a dealer that says the car was desperately low on oil, suffered a major over rev or was just plain neglected and abused. No there has to be some major fault since all the owners are professional race car drivers, mechanics and engineers.

[Ultramaroon]

I've been watching and sometimes commenting in these 'spun bearing' threads.


1. The more I learn about the oil distribution system, the less I believe in the sealant contamination issue. I can find no references to joints downstream of the oil pump where sealant is applied.


2. Carbon deposits do build up everywhere oil is distributed. I can't recall any thread which shows evidence directly attributing bearing failure to carbon buildup in galleys or passages. That first thread doesn't mean anything. The photo of the alleged blockage is of a main bearing. The rod bearing failed.


3. I still suspect a possible issue with the oil galley covers in the timing chain cover. All those countersunk screws in plane are a well known design fail.

[ermax]

I studied the crap out of the oil distribution while mine was apart and I also became seriously doubtful of the packing theory. That’s when I went on a mission to find the source of this theory (which none of the threads linked have). One of the threads linked there had some crap about packing moving around the gear. I know the area they are referring to because mine had packing built up and turning around the cam too. After a repacked the cam assemblies it made its way on the cam again but I cut it all off before putting to covers back on. But that area has zero impact on the main or rods because the bearings aren’t fed through the head. They have their own straight shot right from the timing cover.

I stand by my statement that it’s a biasing problem. That thread I’ve linked to basically comes to the same conclusion. I don’t care if they only refer to racing. The biasing doesn’t change when you get on a track. Tracking just develops more heat which will reduce pressure on any engine from any manufacturer. If the engine already produces marginal pressure your going to have problems at high temps.

Those covers over the pump and galleries in the timing cover seemed like a bad design to me too. I like that they are there because you can clean them out easily. But there is no easy way to torque them (the manual doesn’t have a single word about these covers). No rubber seals. You’re just relying on them to be perfectly flat so they seal perfectly. I’d love to see the cover under pressure to see if oil (pressure) is leaked past those plates.

One thing that is nice about this engine is you can put your eyes on every oil path in the engine. It’s easy to get a good understanding of how the oil routes. The diagram in the manual is low resolution and hard to visualize. The seal theory was debunked for me as soon as a saw the direct path to the crank. Blockage anywhere else would just bias more to the crank.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Some of the issues were no doubt brought on by the owners themselves but heaven forbid we should believe a dealer that says the car was desperately low on oil, suffered a major over rev or was just plain neglected and abused. No there has to be some major fault since all the owners are professional race car drivers, mechanics and engineers.

I agree with you on some cases. I am skeptical that the one guy only had one quart left and didn’t know it yet changed his oil on the correct intervals. I suspect there is more to that story (didn’t really change it). The case with the ejected rocker being an over rev is total BS though. Hot spots on the flywheel and/or PP doesn’t automatically mean over rev. I’m not sure I’ve seen any of my flywheels or PP without hotspots. They were just looking to reject his claim. They didn’t redesign to rockers for cost cutting. They had a problem and knew it.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

2. Carbon deposits do build up everywhere oil is distributed. I can't recall any thread which shows evidence directly attributing bearing failure to carbon buildup in galleys or passages. That first thread doesn't mean anything. The photo of the alleged blockage is of a main bearing. The rod bearing failed.

Hadn’t considered this. I’m trying to picture where in the engine carbon would build up in the oil system though. My engine was remarkably clean considering it had 86k on it.

[CoolHandMoss]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I've been watching and sometimes commenting in these 'spun bearing' threads.


1. The more I learn about the oil distribution system, the less I believe in the sealant contamination issue. I can find no references to joints downstream of the oil pump where sealant is applied.


2. Carbon deposits do build up everywhere oil is distributed. I can't recall any thread which shows evidence directly attributing bearing failure to carbon buildup in galleys or passages. That first thread doesn't mean anything. The photo of the alleged blockage is of a main bearing. The rod bearing failed.


3. I still suspect a possible issue with the oil galley covers in the timing chain cover. All those countersunk screws in plane are a well known design fail.

The first linked thread (at least the first) shows clear evidence of sealant blocking oil flow down stream of the oil pump.

The rod bearing gets fed oil from that main bearing where the blockage is depicted. That's why there's a hole in the crank where it rides in that main bearing. A partial blockage of oil entering the main bearing could allow enough oil to the main bearing to be lubricated but not enough excess pressure to feed the rod bearing sufficiently.