2015 Ford Mustang / Shelby GT350 Official - 5.2L FPC with 500+hp/400+ lb-ft

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by ZDan

S2000 engine + trans ~209kg all in
240hp/209kg = 1.15 hp/kg

LS3 engine + trans ~285kg all in
436hp/285kg = 1.53 hp/kg

Advantage: OHV/pushrods :P

Tuned K20 fares a little better I think at under 200kg and similar power, but it's a lot better than some embarassing German drivetrains which deliver under 1hp/kg. OHV generally still wins this fight but some DOHC engines in a high state of tune can at least avoid complete embarassment. The 2GR with its 78mm stroke could probably do pretty well if someone really wanted.

With say Porsche, the base model engines with smaller displacement are basically the same as the bigger displacement versions but they produce a lot less power, so you also lose out there. OHV engines I am guessing are made a lot closer to their maximum displacement potential from the factory. The 430hp Carrera S X51 engine and the 275hp electronically limited 2.7L Cayman engine weigh almost the same but the first one makes way more power.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Honestly, the base Vette has to be the biggest performance bargain around. You should be able to get somewhat near stock Z06 power with bolt-ons (like 550hp). If I wanted a Corvette that's how I would do it.

I don't think I could ever get over the pushrods (my thinking being, Honda seems to be able to make high power/weight ratio DOHC and SOHC motors, so we just need to either wait for Honda to make a serious car or other manufacturers to make a good engine) but I have so much respect for the car.

For street performance, the regular Vette will be it. For track performance, the Z06 will be it. It will cost money to get a standard Vette ready for real track duty. The Z06 looks a brake fluid and pad change away from enduro racing.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by P@ul

I must have missed that press release. Do you have a link for that?

This was the article everybody got excited about:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2015...cat=affiliates

Over the next year the 400 lbs. shrunk to 200 lbs. from anonymous 'sources' and then the story went to Ford being tight lipped on the weight until it released at 20-100 lbs. heavier depending on trim.

[Atropine]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

This was the article everybody got excited about:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2015...cat=affiliates

Over the next year the 400 lbs. shrunk to 200 lbs. from anonymous 'sources' and then the story went to Ford being tight lipped on the weight until it released at 20-100 lbs. heavier depending on trim.

Thats the article I remember so well.

It mentions losing weight for MPG and "Pony car status".

It also alluded to aluminum like the F-150...

Many you are a regular detective!

[53Driver]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

Even though I'm a Ford owner, I'm a GM guy who was too disappointed in the Camaro to buy one. But I can only be fair. Your disappointment is almost entirely manufactured, based on unreasonable expectations, and completely unfair to Ford and their product.

Not to go off subject, but out of curiousity what was it about the new Camaro that disappointed you? I'm more of a Ford guy, but I think the Camaro SS with the 1LE package is an underrated bargain if you ask me. I also wouldn't mind owning the new ZO6, but in the end I'll probably hold out and see what the "GT350" is going to be like in person. The whole "Voodoo" engine sounds intriguing...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

Even though I'm a Ford owner, I'm a GM guy who was too disappointed in the Camaro to buy one. But I can only be fair. Your disappointment is almost entirely manufactured, based on unreasonable expectations, and completely unfair to Ford and their product.

My bad on thinking there was an official source. But...
My disappointment is the same whether there were "leaked" stories of 400 lb. lighter and much smaller from "sources" within Ford or not. That makes no difference, the only thing that matters is the end result. Which is very disappointing. But not at all surprising...

Whether there had been rumors of 400 lb. weight reduction or 200 lb. weight gain or no stories at all, I'm equally disappointed in a 3700ish lb. V8 Mustang.

[DarkSunrise]

Ford undoubtedly saw the Edmunds story on the Mustang shedding 400 lbs. and cutting size. If true that the "leak" didn't originate from Ford, they should have come out with an official statement denying the story and tempering expectations.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

Even though I'm a Ford owner, I'm a GM guy who was too disappointed in the Camaro to buy one. But I can only be fair. Your disappointment is almost entirely manufactured, based on unreasonable expectations, and completely unfair to Ford and their product.

Geez you make it sound like we shot ourselves in the foot or hung the local doctor for curing the plague with witchcraft.

Here's Car and Driver claiming it will lose 200 lbs. about a year ago:

A new platform—code-named “S550”—will underpin this new Mustang, and through that architecture, Ford is expecting to shed some 200 pounds from the current car’s roughly 3500-pound curb weight.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...l-details-news

And they followed up 2 months later stating they had doubt in their -200lb. estimates:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news

I don't think there's a publication under the sun who didn't claim that the next Mustang would be lighter at some point. It's a shame we weren't all as cynical as you with every publication claiming a similar story.

At least we all have access to cars that better suit our needs.

[EAGLE5]

All the Al went to the pickup that won't arrive until February.

[P@ul]

There won't be any dramatic weight loss until Ford comes up with a new V8 engine architecture that is significantly smaller than the Mod motor (including the latest coyote incarnation). The Mod just takes up way too much packaging space; Ford can't shrink the engine bay, and consequently can't make the rest of the car smaller because they need to maintain proportions.

This might not be a better "sports" car, a nebulous area anyway, but it's a better Mustang. I'm amazed at the almost luxury like level of equipment you can get on a Mustang. They get expensive really quick! At the end of the day, only sales matter...

The next gen Camaro has some promise, it's supposed to switch to the Alpha chassis (ATS Chassis) which is considerably smaller than the current Zeta. The latest spy shots seem to back up this chassis change, and a pushrod engine is very efficient for packaging (this is why it swaps into every car under the sun).

[53Driver]

Originally Posted by P@ul

There won't be any dramatic weight loss until Ford comes up with a new V8 engine architecture that is significantly smaller than the Mod motor (including the latest coyote incarnation). The Mod just takes up way too much packaging space; Ford can't shrink the engine bay, and consequently can't make the rest of the car smaller because they need to maintain proportions.

This might not be a better "sports" car, a nebulous area anyway, but it's a better Mustang. I'm amazed at the almost luxury like level of equipment you can get on a Mustang. They get expensive really quick! At the end of the day, only sales matter...

The next gen Camaro has some promise, it's supposed to switch to the Alpha chassis (ATS Chassis) which is considerably smaller than the current Zeta. The latest spy shots seem to back up this chassis change, and a pushrod engine is very efficient for packaging (this is why it swaps into every car under the sun).

Agree on everything and especially the last. As much as I am a Ford guy when it comes to Pony/muscle cars, you can't beat the compact, lightweight packaging of the LS engines with their (OMG ancient !) pushrod technology. It will be interesting to see if the new Camaro sheds some weight. If they got the V-8 Camaros down to 3500ish pounds, it would be quite the role reversal for Chevy and Ford considering the main complaint when the new (old) Camaros came out was that they were a couple hundred pounds heavier than their similar equipped Mustang counterparts.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by 53Driver

Agree on everything and especially the last. As much as I am a Ford guy when it comes to Pony/muscle cars, you can't beat the compact, lightweight packaging of the LS engines with their (OMG ancient !) pushrod technology.

DOHC/multivalve is also ancient! Accomplishing the same thing (producing power while being semi-reasonably efficient) in a smaller package size with fewer parts shouldn't be considered "old-tech". There is an elegance in the simplicity of the OHV V8. And one could argue that DOHC V8 with 4x the camshafts is somewhat Rube-Goldbergian!

It will be interesting to see if the new Camaro sheds some weight. If they got the V-8 Camaros down to 3500ish pounds, it would be quite the role reversal for Chevy and Ford considering the main complaint when the new (old) Camaros came out was that they were a couple hundred pounds heavier than their similar equipped Mustang counterparts.

I think they'll take the new 3700 lb. Mustang as an excuse to give us another heavyweight Camaro

It's a vicious cycle: Big/heavy '05 Mustang led GM to make an even more stupidly huge/heavy '10 Camaro. That Camaro let Ford get away with a still-way-oversized-and-even-heavier '15 Mustang. This Mustang, guaranteed, will influence the next Camaro in exactly the bigger/heavier direction

[53Driver]

Originally Posted by ZDan

DOHC/multivalve is also ancient! Accomplishing the same thing (producing power while being semi-reasonably efficient) in a smaller package size with fewer parts shouldn't be considered "old-tech". There is an elegance in the simplicity of the OHV V8. And one could argue that DOHC V8 with 4x the camshafts is somewhat Rube-Goldbergian!


I think they'll take the new 3700 lb. Mustang as an excuse to give us another heavyweight Camaro

It's a vicious cycle: Big/heavy '05 Mustang led GM to make an even more stupidly huge/heavy '10 Camaro. That Camaro let Ford get away with a still-way-oversized-and-even-heavier '15 Mustang. This Mustang, guaranteed, will influence the next Camaro in exactly the bigger/heavier direction

Kind of like the 60/70s all over again?

[LSxJunkie]

Originally Posted by P@ul

There won't be any dramatic weight loss until Ford comes up with a new V8 engine architecture that is significantly smaller than the Mod motor (including the latest coyote incarnation). The Mod just takes up way too much packaging space; Ford can't shrink the engine bay, and consequently can't make the rest of the car smaller because they need to maintain proportions.

This might not be a better "sports" car, a nebulous area anyway, but it's a better Mustang. I'm amazed at the almost luxury like level of equipment you can get on a Mustang. They get expensive really quick! At the end of the day, only sales matter...

The next gen Camaro has some promise, it's supposed to switch to the Alpha chassis (ATS Chassis) which is considerably smaller than the current Zeta. The latest spy shots seem to back up this chassis change, and a pushrod engine is very efficient for packaging (this is why it swaps into every car under the sun).

A Coyote is the same length and 2 inches shorter than an LSx. It is, however, 3 inches wider.

Originally Posted by ZDan

DOHC/multivalve is also ancient! Accomplishing the same thing (producing power while being semi-reasonably efficient) in a smaller package size with fewer parts shouldn't be considered "old-tech". There is an elegance in the simplicity of the OHV V8. And one could argue that DOHC V8 with 4x the camshafts is somewhat Rube-Goldbergian!


I think they'll take the new 3700 lb. Mustang as an excuse to give us another heavyweight Camaro

It's a vicious cycle: Big/heavy '05 Mustang led GM to make an even more stupidly huge/heavy '10 Camaro. That Camaro let Ford get away with a still-way-oversized-and-even-heavier '15 Mustang. This Mustang, guaranteed, will influence the next Camaro in exactly the bigger/heavier direction

The Alpha platform is much smaller than the Zeta platform. The Camaro is, underneath, a G8 Coupe. The next generation Camaro is going to be probably a hair bigger than an ATS Coupe. I imagine, with the car physically shrinking a bit, the weight will remain the same.