Engine Oil for DD/Track

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by glamcem

keep in mind, we all noticed a drop in our oil temps with 5w-30 like many other people who have done the switch ,so if I have to choose between lower oil temps over a slight disadvantage of the pressures I would always go with the lower oil temps since I see it as a preventive method,

The heat difference is small, the protection difference could be large but it's your money. However, you still don't know what your pressures are and this is something you really should know before committing to any viscosity oil. It's illogical to potentially sacrifice protection in order run oil a few degrees cooler.

If you haven't gone through Element Tunings findings you may want to. These engines are HORRIBLE at making good pressure with hot oil. Dezoris documented the same thing.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63723

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

the spec cars are not stock power.

Mike

Have the rules been changed or I am looking at wrong page?
what power mods have been done to your spec cars?

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

The heat difference is small, the protection difference could be large but it's your money. However, you still don't know what your pressures are and this is something you really should know before committing to any viscosity oil. It's illogical to potentially sacrifice protection in order run oil a few degrees cooler.

If you haven't gone through Element Tunings findings you may want to. These engines are HORRIBLE at making good pressure with hot oil. Dezoris documented the same thing.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63723

I thought same applies to all cars

I've seen this thread but I don't think I can use this as a reference Colin,
why? because it substantially makes more power and torque, and there's a giant turbo sits right next to the peanut size "sandwich plate" and an accusump like a bazooka and with the sustained high corner G loads, I would be surprised if motor didn't go kaboom.. like we already discussed not all the oils are created equal, ester based 30 weight oils give almost exact protection as the conventional 40 weight oils..

I don't want you to think I just go to track days and drive because I don't .. I always monitor my temps and take logs and they were within the range last time I checked I just don't recall the numbers, but that doesn't also mean that there are no risks associated with a boosted car of course, I know I am already taking risks by tracking FI but thanks to Subaru for not giving a better motor, those are the risks I am willing to take (instead of driving a very boring car)..and that's the exact reason why I searched for the coolest running FI option and I cannot even imagine how would be my temps with a turbo setup ..especially the turbo setup..

I have been constantly looking for better cooling methods and have a few other things in mind, I will share my findings

[TRAKRAVN]

Originally Posted by 86Tony

Is eneos 0w50 to thick for track? I was told it was ok for our cars.

I used Eneos 0w-50 at all the time.

My car has a Koyo rad running water with Mocool, and a Mishimoto oil cooler. Other than that is' 100% stock.

I have done full hour track sessions on to come in because the car ran out of fuel. Coolant temps are at ~195F consistently and the oil is around ~215F consistently for the whole run. If I were you I wouldn't have any second thoughts in running the 0w-50.

[RFB]

Originally Posted by TRAKRAVN

I used Eneos 0w-50 at all the time.
My car has a Koyo rad running water with Mocool, and a Mishimoto oil cooler. Other than that is' 100% stock.
I have done full hour track sessions on to come in because the car ran out of fuel. Coolant temps are at ~195F consistently and the oil is around ~215F consistently for the whole run. If I were you I wouldn't have any second thoughts in running the 0w-50.

My results are similar, (xept my oil gets hotter).

BRZWORLD racers have been using Eneos SUSTINA 0w-50 full time for several years, (also very common in Japan).

The extra thickness helps pressure etc. when hot, and our boxers run HOT !

[TRAKRAVN]

I have the kraftwetks adapter installed instead of the mishimoto unit. There is no thermostat and no banjo fittings so the pressure drop caused by the adapter is minimal. That could be why my temps are a little lower. Those temps are from the DDT, not sure how it will be at shannonville or TMP.

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by glamcem

FYI, I have been using 5w-30 not 0w-30 since it gives more protection at higher temps

The only difference between a 0W-30 and a 5W-30 is that the 0W is tested at -35C and the 5W is tested at -30C.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/coldcrank.htm

The second number is actually a viscosity range. You can have thin xW-30's (anything that meets GF5 specs) and thick wX-30's (anything that meets Euro specs or a race oil).

A Euro 0W-30 will be thicker at operating temp., have a higher High Temp High Shear, and likely have higher oil pressure than a GF5 5W-30.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

The only difference between a 0W-30 and a 5W-30 is that the 0W is tested at -35C and the 5W is tested at -30C.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/coldcrank.htm

The second number is actually a viscosity range. You can have thin xW-30's (anything that meets GF5 specs) and thick wX-30's (anything that meets Euro specs or a race oil).

A Euro 0W-30 will be thicker at operating temp., have a higher High Temp High Shear, and likely have higher oil pressure than a GF5 5W-30.

Agreed.

What I've gone so far as to do is google oils on my list with the term "VOA" in the search engine (like: "Mobil 1 0w40 VOA") and that way I can find out what the real 100C KV of an oil is and then I narrow my list and choose the oil that meets my desired 100C KV.

Example: the Mobil 1 0w40 was a bit thin for my use (<14 KV) but the Amsoil 10w-40 was ~14.5 KV.

Now I have to build a new car and I'm going to exclude the oil cooler. I anticipate a 20F increase in operating temp (from 260 to 280F) so therefore I will look for a thin-ish 50wt oil as to no lose my desired pressure at that heat range. I will probably look at 15.5-16.5 KV 50wt.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

The only difference between a 0W-30 and a 5W-30 is that the 0W is tested at -35C and the 5W is tested at -30C.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/coldcrank.htm

The second number is actually a viscosity range. You can have thin xW-30's (anything that meets GF5 specs) and thick wX-30's (anything that meets Euro specs or a race oil).

A Euro 0W-30 will be thicker at operating temp., have a higher High Temp High Shear, and likely have higher oil pressure than a GF5 5W-30.

yeah I know what the lower numbers stand for but there are exceptions like you mentioned and not all the oils created equal , for instance Mobil 1 5w-30 Extended Performance is slightly thicker than the regular 5w-30 and offers slightly better protection..
I initially used 0w-40 Mobil 1 but when I switched to 5w-30 I noticed that the oil temps dropped a bit, many people experienced the same.. I think there is no right or wrong viscosity/oil but there is right use for the specific application

[rice_classic]

:Any tribologists please chime in any correct all inaccuracies:

Our engines have several different lubrication needs but yet we ask 1 oil to cover all those needs. I'm on a very long conference call most of which doesn't pertain to me so I'm gonna do some typing.


This is my understanding of things:
__________________________________________________

Let's use Cem's setup as an example. His engine is doing 2 things that are abnormal from a stock engine. 1: Added power from forced induction and 2: very high oil temps due to track conditions which creates super thin, very low viscosity oil.

Before I continue, not everyone knows that oil system pressure does not separate or lubricate bearing/rod surfaces... nope, that is done by a process called hydrodynamic lubrication. I've talked a lot about pressure in the past so I'll only cover a little toward the end. The best analogy I've ever heard for the hydrodynamic wedge is the hydroplaning tire. Think of a tire driving on a wet patch of road, if that tire speeds up fast enough it won't be able to evacuate the water in front of it, the water will create a "wedge" in front of it and once that happens the tire will ride up and upon that wedge and now the tire is hydroplaning (aka: lubrication has occurred).

The crankshaft, as the journal rides inside the bearing, a hydrodynamic wedge is formed in front of the leading surface which it rides upon and lubrication occurs. Oil flow is the replacement of oil as it's being pushed out of the journal. Unlike the hydroplaning tire, we always want the wedge to exist!

But let's go back to that tire, more importantly a tire with some tread because our bearing and journal surfaces have 'asperities' or roughness to them as well.

Let's say the road has 1/8" inch of standing water and now that tire will hydroplane at 20mph. How do we get the tire to hydroplane at a lower speed or any speed?
A) Remove the tread (like making your bearings/journals smoother)
B) Change the fluid so there's 1/2" of standing water (aka: thicker oil)
C) Reduce the weight the tire supports (reduce cylinder pressure or engine power)

Well, we can't really do A because the engine's already assembled. Nobody wants to do C because less power?.. no way!! So the answer is B, we have to do it with the lubricant.

For any speeds below 20mph in this scenario, what is that treaded tire doing? That's right, it's making contact with the surface. Just like a tire traveling at a high rate of speed will hydroplane more easily, the faster an engine spins, the more easily it creates and rides upon its hydrodynamic wedge. Therefore at high rpms the engine can be safely lubricated with very low viscosity fluid, but slow that engine down (like slowing that treaded tire down) and at some point there might not be enough "water on the road" (viscosity or film strength) which would allow the journal to interface with the bearing, or in this analogy, the tire to have traction.

So Cem is right, running around all day at 7000rpms is just fine at high rpms using a thin oil even at high heat. But can I also be right? Well, the answer really is: It Depends.

Hydrodynamic oil film thickness is directly proportional to the viscosity of the oil.

The Forced Induction allows his engine to make more torque at lower RPMs than OEM so his pistons can push down on the crank with much more force at lower rpms and we KNOW that at lower RPMs the hydrodynamic wedge is not as easily formed and now we're pushing it harder into the lubricant. So if I put more weight on the treaded tire I can now travel through the patch of water at greater than 20mph before hydroplaning (aka lubrication) happens. Another way of saying that is increased load makes it more difficult to for the hydrodynamic wedge to form. On top of that the extra heat put into the oil has thinned it significantly so now the treaded tire that's also carrying extra load, is now traveling through a thinner patch of water which makes far more difficult for the hydrodynamic wedge to occur.

Now what this means is that it's possible that at some point as the 5w-30 heats up to be very hot it may become so thin that if he applies engine load at a low enough RPM (which he has more load available to apply because FI) the hydrodynamic wedge may not form and premature wear on his crankshaft bearings or rod journals could occur.. or worse. I don't know where that point is however. It could be that at 260F oil temp it won't, maybe it won't occur at any load or rpm until the oil is over 280F...

But we do know that high load and low rpm needs high viscosity/film thickness. High rpm and load needs very little viscosity. My concern for his engine wasn't at high RPM. It was at extreme oil temp combined with low rpm load. There's also a lesson here.. Don't "lug" your engine on your cool down lap. *"Lugging" is applying lots of pedal at a very low RPM.


Oil pressure is a crude measuring tool but is useful for gauging viscosity if you also know your oil weight and oil temp. If I'm at 260F on a 0w20 and I make 30psi at 7k rpms, the pressure is something that I can use to make a determination if I have adequate thickness for hydrodynamic wedge at all RPM. Some people say 10psi for every 1000 rpms, others say different things.



So in Summary:
Cem can run the thinner oil and be fine especially if his engine oil temp cools quickly after a session and he doesn't apply high load at lower RPM when the oil is at it's hottest. But I don't know where the line is here so I see "risk" in this equation. That is why I think Cem would benefit from a slightly thicker viscosity mainly due to the large variety of demands in addition to being FI.

I lug my street car around at low rpms for fuel economy so I like my 0w-30 for milling around town. In my race car I like running a thinner oil just like Cem but my goal is to maintain a minimum of 50psi or greater and the car doesn't see load below 4k. Since I've already addressed the relief system (increased pressure and flow), my only option (per the rules) to achieve my target PSI is via oil viscosity which I try to run the thinnest I can without being below 50psi @ 7k rpm at my hottest temps.

[bluesubie]

Excellent post!

Originally Posted by rice_classic

So Cem is right, running around all day at 7000rpms is just fine at high rpms using a thin oil even at high heat. But can I also be right? Well, the answer really is: It Depends.

Hydrodynamic oil film thickness is directly proportional to the viscosity of the oil.

And I think this says it all.

Yes, you want to run an oil that is thin as possible but as thick as necessary for your application. What you don't want is sustained running in the Boundary Lubrication regime and this happens even in some daily driven engines.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/states-of-lubrication/

This is why some people are having very good results with street/racing oils like Red Line xW20 and Motul 300V 0W20. It is a thin oil when hot, but is loaded with anti-wear additives. In boundary lubrication, you're 100% relying on the additives because the oil film may have permanently or temporarily sheared.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

This is why some people are thinking they have very good results with street/racing oils like Red Line xW20 and Motul 300V 0W20. It is a thin oil when hot, but is loaded with anti-wear additives. In boundary lubrication, you're 100% relying on the additives because the oil film may have permanently or temporarily sheared.

fixed that for you

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

:Any tribologists please chime in any correct all inaccuracies:

Our engines have several different lubrication needs but yet we ask 1 oil to cover all those needs. I'm on a very long conference call most of which doesn't pertain to me so I'm gonna do some typing.


This is my understanding of things:
__________________________________________________

Let's use Cem's setup as an example. His engine is doing 2 things that are abnormal from a stock engine. 1: Added power from forced induction and 2: very high oil temps due to track conditions which creates super thin, very low viscosity oil.

Before I continue, not everyone knows that oil system pressure does not separate or lubricate bearing/rod surfaces... nope, that is done by a process called hydrodynamic lubrication. I've talked a lot about pressure in the past so I'll only cover a little toward the end. The best analogy I've ever heard for the hydrodynamic wedge is the hydroplaning tire. Think of a tire driving on a wet patch of road, if that tire speeds up fast enough it won't be able to evacuate the water in front of it, the water will create a "wedge" in front of it and once that happens the tire will ride up and upon that wedge and now the tire is hydroplaning (aka: lubrication has occurred).

The crankshaft, as the journal rides inside the bearing, a hydrodynamic wedge is formed in front of the leading surface which it rides upon and lubrication occurs. Oil flow is the replacement of oil as it's being pushed out of the journal. Unlike the hydroplaning tire, we always want the wedge to exist!

But let's go back to that tire, more importantly a tire with some tread because our bearing and journal surfaces have 'asperities' or roughness to them as well.

Let's say the road has 1/8" inch of standing water and now that tire will hydroplane at 20mph. How do we get the tire to hydroplane at a lower speed or any speed?
A) Remove the tread (like making your bearings/journals smoother)
B) Change the fluid so there's 1/2" of standing water (aka: thicker oil)
C) Reduce the weight the tire supports (reduce cylinder pressure or engine power)

Well, we can't really do A because the engine's already assembled. Nobody wants to do C because less power?.. no way!! So the answer is B, we have to do it with the lubricant.

For any speeds below 20mph in this scenario, what is that treaded tire doing? That's right, it's making contact with the surface. Just like a tire traveling at a high rate of speed will hydroplane more easily, the faster an engine spins, the more easily it creates and rides upon its hydrodynamic wedge. Therefore at high rpms the engine can be safely lubricated with very low viscosity fluid, but slow that engine down (like slowing that treaded tire down) and at some point there might not be enough "water on the road" (viscosity or film strength) which would allow the journal to interface with the bearing, or in this analogy, the tire to have traction.

So Cem is right, running around all day at 7000rpms is just fine at high rpms using a thin oil even at high heat. But can I also be right? Well, the answer really is: It Depends.

Hydrodynamic oil film thickness is directly proportional to the viscosity of the oil.

The Forced Induction allows his engine to make more torque at lower RPMs than OEM so his pistons can push down on the crank with much more force at lower rpms and we KNOW that at lower RPMs the hydrodynamic wedge is not as easily formed and now we're pushing it harder into the lubricant. So if I put more weight on the treaded tire I can now travel through the patch of water at greater than 20mph before hydroplaning (aka lubrication) happens. Another way of saying that is increased load makes it more difficult to for the hydrodynamic wedge to form. On top of that the extra heat put into the oil has thinned it significantly so now the treaded tire that's also carrying extra load, is now traveling through a thinner patch of water which makes far more difficult for the hydrodynamic wedge to occur.

Now what this means is that it's possible that at some point as the 5w-30 heats up to be very hot it may become so thin that if he applies engine load at a low enough RPM (which he has more load available to apply because FI) the hydrodynamic wedge may not form and premature wear on his crankshaft bearings or rod journals could occur.. or worse. I don't know where that point is however. It could be that at 260F oil temp it won't, maybe it won't occur at any load or rpm until the oil is over 280F...

But we do know that high load and low rpm needs high viscosity/film thickness. High rpm and load needs very little viscosity. My concern for his engine wasn't at high RPM. It was at extreme oil temp combined with low rpm load. There's also a lesson here.. Don't "lug" your engine on your cool down lap. *"Lugging" is applying lots of pedal at a very low RPM.


Oil pressure is a crude measuring tool but is useful for gauging viscosity if you also know your oil weight and oil temp. If I'm at 260F on a 0w20 and I make 30psi at 7k rpms, the pressure is something that I can use to make a determination if I have adequate thickness for hydrodynamic wedge at all RPM. Some people say 10psi for every 1000 rpms, others say different things.



So in Summary:
Cem can run the thinner oil and be fine especially if his engine oil temp cools quickly after a session and he doesn't apply high load at lower RPM when the oil is at it's hottest. But I don't know where the line is here so I see "risk" in this equation. That is why I think Cem would benefit from a slightly thicker viscosity mainly due to the large variety of demands in addition to being FI.

I lug my street car around at low rpms for fuel economy so I like my 0w-30 for milling around town. In my race car I like running a thinner oil just like Cem but my goal is to maintain a minimum of 50psi or greater and the car doesn't see load below 4k. Since I've already addressed the relief system (increased pressure and flow), my only option (per the rules) to achieve my target PSI is via oil viscosity which I try to run the thinnest I can without being below 50psi @ 7k rpm at my hottest temps.

keep in mind Colin, oil film thickness still remains even after the 280F degrees since is still within the operating range for V8 LSx engines with the same 5w-30 Mobil 1 oil... for the new C7 Z06 it even tolerates to run the oil up until @320F degree with 0w-40 IIRC,(they possibly couldn't fix the overheating and heatsoak issues, and instead of addressing the issue came up with this brilliant band-aid idea I think ) ..

oil degradation doesn't start below 280F ..but to be extra cautious; I always monitor my temps and try not to pass that level and am sticking to the frequent changes method... since there's no ideal solution that can work for all applications (endurance racing vs lapping vs DD) this seems to be the most logical option for me now.. while addressing the overheating issues at the core of course

Also, I think the oil pressures should be very close to the ideal 10 psi per 1000 rpm with Mobil 1 5w-30 .. see the chart in the below link (asked why it looks like a plotted dot vs a line graph) if the oil pressures are below 50 psi at 7000 RPM, there should be something really wrong with the engine which cannot be solved with a thicker oil I think ..

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by glamcem

oil degradation doesn't start below 280F ..

I know but I was not talking about degradation. I was talking about a condition in which the "wedge" wouldn't be formed and the film thickness would be overcome which can happen when the oil is very thin and lots of load is applied at lower RPMs.

Originally Posted by glamcem

but to be extra cautious; I always monitor my temps

I get that but my frustration is that you then say...

Originally Posted by glamcem

I think the oil pressures should be very close to the ideal 10 psi per 1000 rpm with Mobil 1 5w-30

And that's my issue is that you aren't paying attention to what your oil pressure is.

Look at Dezoris' chart here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=oil+pressure

10W30 Redline

10w30 Redline 245F @ 800RPM 7PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 245F @ 2000RPM 35PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 245F @ 4000RPM 52PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 245F @ 7000RPM 46PSI Oil Pressure

10W40 Redline (12 Laps)

10w40 Redline 265F @ 800RPM 8PSI Oil Pressure
10w40 Redline 265F @ 2000RPM 31PSI Oil Pressure
10w40 Redline 265F @ 4000RPM 55PSI Oil Pressure
10w40 Redline 265F @ 7000RPM 45PSI Oil Pressure

As you can see, at oil temperatures that you run, you are NOT getting anywhere near your 10psi/1000rpm with your 30wt oil. Which what I've been trying to say all along.. the FA20 is NOT GOOD at making good oil pressure at high oil temps.

Now you're going to tell me that pressure doesn't matter and it's all about flow and we'll start this rodeo all over again... But oh well, that's what happens in every oil thread on every car forum so it's all part of the fun.