Clutch Foot Positioning for MT

[paulca]

Originally Posted by DeadStar7

...you killed 3 cars in 7 years and still think this is okay?

No, I sold two of them and own the 3rd.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by DeadStar7

An emergency stop requires the brake. It does NOT require the clutch.

That leaves you out of control of the car. Emergency stop SHOULD be brake until you are near a stop, then clutch and brake. In a city street at 30mph, it just floor both (assuming you have antilocks).

If on your learner test here you hit the brake and stalled the car in the emergency stop, you would fail instantly.

Coming from a country where 95% of people drive auto's you don't have many people to turn to for good advice do you?

Have you ever had formal training in driving a manual? I expect not. I have had at least 15 hours of formal training and sat an official test in a manual.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by paulca

I have driven this way for 7 years, through about 100,000 miles and 3 cars. I have only had to replace or repair a clutch once and that was 60,000 miles old and it was the plates were worn not the release bearing.

I always get a laugh out of people bragging that they get 60K miles out of a clutch that should last twice that long.

Originally Posted by paulca

You will find very people few who started driving a manual who move their foot off the clutch.

You find few people doing it correctly because they don't know any better. Driving a manual is a dying skill, and there are fewer people around to teach new drivers how to do it correctly. Instead, they have people like you telling them that it's okay to do it wrong.

You mentioned that you've never heard of an instructor teaching the correct way to use the clutch. If that's true, then you've been going to the wrong instructors. Below is a video of Hurley Haywood teaching heel/toe shifting. You'll notice that both he and the student use the clutch correctly, taking their foot off the clutch when not using it and moving to the dead pedal. Fast forward to 13:36 if the link doesn't take you there automatically.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqYeusE8ksk&t=13m36s"]Porsche 911 GT3 with Hurley Haywood - Heel/Toe Shift Lesson - YouTube[/ame]


And here's an instructor for "AOL Autos" of all things (relevant part at 1:45):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGF2C21bS9Y&t=1m45s"]How to Drive a Manual Part One | AOL Autos - YouTube[/ame]


Like I said, if you want to keep replacing clutches every 60,000 miles, by all means keep riding the clutch. But please don't try to pass that off as the right way to drive.

[paulca]

Pfff LOL. From an American/Canadian. Over here nobody drives autos. Everyone drives manuals. Bar the odd one of two and 99% of them learnt in a manual first.

You don't even have manual driving tests.

I'll stick to driving instructors and advanced observers including police advanced driving instructors over here thanks.

Heel and toe shifting is NOT standard or even recommended on the public roads. There is no reason to downshift sequentially through the gears. Slow, select the gear you need, accelerate.

You only actually need to heel and toe when you are so close to the limit that any accidental bump on the transmission from the clutch only downshift could break the car into a slide. If you are that near the limit on public road you will get pulled, points on your license and nasty fine or probably banned if you don't kill someone first.

Alternatively if you are just doing it cause it's cool, then you are wasting brain cycles that could otherwise be used for observation and hazard awareness.

As to clutches lasting only 60,000miles, this is fairly normal over here. It's a completely different style of driving, different type of roads, junctions, etc. etc. We are probably hard on clutches but that doesn't mean we are using them wrong. I'd gather most clutch wear is done sitting on hills on the clutch over here. A lot of people will continue to sit on the clutch for many minutes at a time, rather than handbrake it.

And those videos would get you failed or many minor warnings in your test here. That section in the 1:45 of the first video he makes immediately about 3 or 4 minor driving faults.

[paulca]

Comparing the second video to a learner test here...

1:11 incorrect palming of the gear shifter, allows your hand to slip. Potential minor fault.

1:50 having to look at the shifter/handbrake - minor fault.

1:52 You should already be prepared on the clutch to move off before you drop the handbrake. Minor fault if the instructor is having a bad day.

2:07 and many, many times, only one hand on the wheel for no reason.

Moving his feet around when there is no need. The time between 1st and 2nd gear shifts is about 3-5 seconds, there is NO need to move your foot off the clutch, this more of less amounts to "creating workload where none is needed". You wouldn't get a minor fault either way on a learner test, but probably on an advanced test.

2:13 throttle should be completely off for an up shift allowing the revs to fall for the next gear. Not doing so will put a LOT of wear on the clutch and syncros. If you reved it during the shift or bump the clutch in cause the revs are out, you might get a minor here.

2:21 Minor fault, in correct use of steering, crossing hands on the wheel.

2:24 two minors, inappropriate clutch control and coasting.

2:35 minor fault, allowing wheel to "spin back" through your fingers.

2:42 minor fault, coasting.

The car should NEVER be in neutral when rolling.

You do not want to be in the power band. All modern cars deliver enough power for normal traffic maneuvering from 1000rpm up. Going anywhere near 3k will get your a minor fault for reving. You might get away with it coming out of a junction while steering and unable to shift for a moment, but ideally you should just not accelerate as much. 1st-2nd should be done just after the car is rolling, no point travelling anywhere in 1st, it's too snatchy a gear.

3:17 Crossing hands on the wheel, one hand on the wheel - minor faults.

3:25 Minor fault, coasting.

3:33 over reving propably a minor, more from the rapid acceleration and reving the car unless there was a reason to shift late.

4:33 you wanna downshift into the correct gear before you need to accelerate, you never want to come close to laboring the engine.

Overall, virtually zero observation or mirror usage, waving his hand around instead of keeping it on the wheel.

He would have clocked up well over 7 minors, several repeated minors and in that short video he would have failed a UK driving test.

[x1UP]

You guys arguing about the best way to put your clutch foot, you guys forget how much different it is here compared to Europe.

They have been using manual their whole lives, unlike Americans who primarily drive automatics.

Their roads are different, the STYLE of driving is different and etc.


It's a different driving culture out there and vice versa. Don't go out bashing one's use of the clutch foot if you have never been to their part of the culture and can't comment about it.

It makes absolutely no sense, there are ALWAYS going to be different positionings, but by no means can you criticize it to death.

[paulca]

Also, defining terms. I see "riding the clutch" the same as "covering the clutch", ie, keeping you foot on the pedal without depressing it so your foot is were it needs to be when you need to use the clutch.

The only time I have ever heard an instructor mention it over here is very, very rarely and only when cruising on a motorway that it might be a good idea to just rest your foot on the dead pedal.

I do not mean pushing at the clutch because you can't be assed changing gear so rather than labor the engine you slip the clutch. You 'can' do that if you really need to, such as being slightly too slow for 2nd, but there being no real need for 1st cause you'll be in and out of it in a second or two, then slightly slipping the clutch for a second or two to help prevent laboring is fine. Doing it all the time cause you haven't learnt to drive a manual properly and are trying to avoid shifting is wrong and will wreck your clutch over time. Besides, 1st gear should be avoided except for when setting off and maneuvering to park etc. As soon as you can get into 2nd do so. When slowing, only select 1st if you intend to come to a complete halt. Down shifting into first and releasing the clutch is considered bad technique as the gear is so snatchy and lurchy.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by paulca

And those videos would get you failed or many minor warnings in your test here. That section in the 1:45 of the first video he makes immediately about 3 or 4 minor driving faults.

And yet they're the professional driving instructors, while you're not.

Originally Posted by paulca

And this, correct me if I'm wrong but the syncros are only doing anything when the ratios of the shafts are not equal, ie, you are out of gear. Once IN gear there is no concept of syncro, it's just a splined ring or ring of dogs are that fully connected. Pulling on the gear shifter does nothing other than put a little load on the selector fork.

I missed this earlier. It's not true. When you're in gear with your hand off the shifter, the shift sleeve is fully engaged with the gear and shouldn't be doing anything to the synchronizer. However, if you ride along with your hand on the shifter, that levered pressure will push or pull the shift fork slightly out of its normal position so that the shift sleeve can move the synchronizer ring into a position where it can bind slightly. It's made to ride in a detente position with the shifter at its normal resting point, not with pressure on the shifter being transmitted to the shift fork.

In normal wear, the synchronizers don't wear on the teeth, but on the smooth part inside where they mate with the gear cone and slide against it. They're usually made of soft brass so that they will wear out without scoring the steel on the gear cone. If you put them in a bind, those surfaces will wear more quickly. Then the clearances become out of tolerance and the synchronizers stop doing their job, resulting in unpleasant crunching sounds.

Originally Posted by x1UP

They have been using manual their whole lives, unlike Americans who primarily drive automatics.

I've been driving manuals for 31 years, and I learned to drive them in British cars. That's why I know this guy is full of it.

[paulca]

Professional or "Department of transport approved"? Do you have any official federal, state (whatever) manual driving tests? If not, then you won't have any official manual instructors. Someone who teaches rubbish for a living is a professional instructor. A governmental approved driving instructor is much more answerable to and accountable for his failings. Plus we are pedantic feckers over here.

Bottom line, covering/riding the clutch without depressing it is 99% a matter of taste, you wouldn't fail a test either way here. You might get a minor for dancing around between the clutch and dead pedal if you ripped the arse out of it. Similarly if you did slip the clutch accidentally when covering it you would also get a minor. You might find an advanced instructor out there who would teach taking your foot off it, but not one I've had.

I'll take your information about the gear shifter and remember not to play with it, but "resting" your hand on it can't hurt. Besides it's bad practice to as you should have your hand on the wheel not resting on the gear knob.

[paulca]

Out of interest, do they tell you to dead pedal your foot or cover the brake on an auto? Are you allowed to use your left foot on the brake?

[Braces]

Just like playing the base drum .... Heel off the floor.

[Sony]

Originally Posted by paulca

Out of interest, do they tell you to dead pedal your foot or cover the brake on an auto? Are you allowed to use your left foot on the brake?

It is illegal to use your left foot on the brake in the USA. You would fail your drivers test if you were caught doing it and you would recieve a fine if an officer caught you doing it on the road. The reason being that they wish to eliminate the possibility of someone riding their brakes in traffic using both feet as well as someone accidentally going for the brakes instead of the clutch with their left foot especially because on Automatics the brake pedal is larger than it is on a car with a clutch. Left foot is used for CLUTCH only in manuals and in Automatic's it is used for nothing at all.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by paulca

Bottom line, covering/riding the clutch without depressing it is 99% a matter of taste, you wouldn't fail a test either way here.

I really don't care about your tests. I'm more interested in avoiding unnecessary wear on my drivetrain components, and driving with your foot on the clutch pedal when you're not using it risks unnecessary wear and premature failure.

I also really don't care whether you burn up your clutch after only 60K miles. However, there are a lot of newbies on this board who are reading what we write here to basically teach themselves how to drive. Knowing that, it is irresponsible to teach them bad habits that can wear out their cars faster. "But paulca said it was okay to ride the clutch" will not help when they have to replace a throwout bearing.

[ZionsWrath]

While I would agree heel toe is more of an "at the limit" technique (although I think you can practice it to become a below the limit one)

I definitely rev match my down shifts unless I am going incredibly low rpm, i.e. below 2k rpm, more like 1500, and can "safely" drag the clutch up in the appropriate gear.

I haven't been arrested once for rev matching or even heel toe though I don't do too much heel toe on the street save off ramps.