400hp on pump gas

[King Tut]

I look forward to adding you to my list of blown motors. No way 412 hp @ 22 psi on a T3/T4 on 93 octane is going to last unless you guys have some special 93 octane. Can you post up the actual dyno plot and maybe a boost plot as well? You definitely have the 93 octane record, and I hope the motor lasts.

[cdrazic93]

Ive seen it eurrywhurr, what exactly is EGT, what are safe values for it, what arent safe values for it, and what causes these unsafe values?
@jamesm

[Ryan P]

Exhaust Gas Temperature; I don't know the rest haha

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[cdrazic93]

Literally figured it out, the moment you posted lol.

[Ryan P]

Since the prime objective seems to be keeping the internals as cool as possible to prevent detonation I can only assume that high egts are an indicator of impending doom.

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[jamesm]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

Ive seen it eurrywhurr, what exactly is EGT, what are safe values for it, what arent safe values for it, and what causes these unsafe values?
@jamesm

what is safe as far as EGT has a lot to do with where the sensor is mounted. with a 'normal' setup where you have the thermocouple in the exhaust manifold before the turbo, the number you'll hear thrown around most often is 1600f. this is very debatable, as like i said before it depends a lot on the position of the sensor as well as your particular hardware setup (piston and turbine blade metallurgy, for instance).

high egt's are primarily caused by lean fuel mixtures and overly retarded ignition timing. overly high egts are every bit as detrimental as knock. they will literally melt a hole in a piston.

in this particular case it's of concern because in order to be running 20+psi on a 12.5:1 compression engine you have to run very low timing to keep knock at bay, even with direct injection. the fa20 is a fantastic engine, but it's still bound by the laws of the car gods. it's quite simple to continually add boost and make power by retarding timing (or fattening up the afr, to a point) to stay out of knock correction, it's just not safe. great for a single glory run on the dyno, not so great for beating on it in the real world out on the street or at the track.

[Hawaiian]

Originally Posted by Shit Luck

Its funny how when you push a motor everyone is full of criticism yet when full blown or dynosty pushes a stock motor the thread is full of fanboys.


If the afr is safe and its not detonating run it.. see what it can do. Clearly you know you are pushing the limits as we know them.
Plenty of people had opinions on what an ej could handle when they came out.

The main difference with that is that the FBM and Dynosty cars are shop cars, and running e85 for the ungodly numbers. The 85 will help keep EGT temps down and the engine from getting too hot.

R/T is pushing a customer car (although maybe it's at his urging) with a fuel that won't allow for the increased timing and knock resistance.

If you go back through the thread most people are impressed, but dubious for the reasons stated by @jamesm and @JuniorAWD. Mainly they are giving him cautionary warnings from prior experience.

[Ny Brz]

Glad to see you are enjoying your car. Pretty impressive on 93, at least you will be building your block, be nice to see how much the block can take with some decent abuse/fun.

[VINCE@RT]

First off we would like to thank Eric for bringing us his car, and letting us do the necessary modifications and repairs to the FA20 Club kit to get it to where it is at now.

Its late and I'm tired but I wanted to respond real quick.

We know, its a 12.5:1 DI motor, we get it, its over 400hp, its a lot on pump...but ya know what...this isn't our first car on the dyno either. Come to think of it, we actually have 2 dynos, 30k sqft, been in the same location for over 10 years, with the same name, with 100% accountability, and do product testing for major companies(check your can or CRC MAF Cleaner), but now I'm getting off track.... so let me go back a few weeks.

So when Eric first came in his car barely ran and had alot of issues. So over the next few weeks we were able to square away a lot of issues, as was Erik with things he was fixing himself. We got the car to 360whp/275wtq with a good tune and no issues of anything being compromised. We still weren't 100% happy with boost control so Eric came back this last time to get the boost control reconfigured and dialed in. He was saying he was looking for over 400whp(which he actually stated from the beginning) and we said no guarantees, we don't chase numbers...but, we will go slow and see how we make out. So after a decent amount of time, we were slowly bringing the boost up while monitoring everything and we had zero indications of anything being compromised and was pulling clean logs. In the end we did several back to back pulls with clean logs and we ended up with over 400whp. This wasn't done over a 3 hour dyno session, we had the car for a few days including a few days where Eric was here for most of the day. We were in constant contact with Eric, no one was pulling the wool over anyone's eyes and it's not called "playing with other people's money"(notice i used the correct quotations), we let him know the results, asked him if he wanted to dial back for the street since we got a good dyno number, he said he wanted to leave it were it was at and with the results and logs that we had we were on board with it.

Listen, we are all big boys here, Erik clearly knows whats up with the posts he is responding with, and he is really the only one that matters here.

But you know what is funny....no one here is persistently asking to see a dyno graph. I mean it made over 400whp(which is great) for like 250rpm and everyone is losing there minds...No one is asking about how the boost comes on or how the TQ curve looks...cause if you saw that and maybe knew a little, you could see where we kept things safe and also made the customer happy.

No, I'm not gonna post the graph and in all likeliness I wont really respond again to defend what we did, unless our customer (Erik) has any questions and would like me too.

Vince

[SirBrass]

No need to defend. I think your end result is awesome, but I'd love to see the dyno graph still.

My main worry is material strength over the long term, since it's not detonating. Without strengthening the internals, the engine internals will simply fail much earlier due to being subjected to higher stresses over the long term.

But I don't need to tell that to anyone. It's something we ALL should be aware of and accept as part of the price to go for higher power. Not talking "fail in 12k miles".. More like 30-50k miles would be my guess.

Anyway, awesome job, and if y'all were closer to AZ, I might consider utilizing y'all's services in the future.

Keep on keepin' on!

On phone I am. Therefore, if mistakes I make, Frank Oz blame you should.

[JuniorAWD]

Originally Posted by Shit Luck

Its funny how when you push a motor everyone is full of criticism yet when full blown or dynosty pushes a stock motor the thread is full of fanboys.


If the afr is safe and its not detonating run it.. see what it can do. Clearly you know you are pushing the limits as we know them.
Plenty of people had opinions on what an ej could handle when they came out.

When a SHOP uses a SHOP CAR to push the envelope its all good. They are SHOPS and have SHOP CARS just for that purpose. They can provide the end user/customer a SAFE RELIABLE car with the data they developed on the SHOP CAR.

Funny you mention the EJ, I was one of the first to push the usdm wrx over 300whp, the usdm STI 2.5 over 500whp on stock internals.. I still do it because I feel I know what they can and cannot take safely. With that said, I am always one to push the envelope on the stock parts.. I have pushed the shop car to levels I would never push a customers car, and I can tell you this is a BAD BAD BAD idea...
AFR and Det are 2 parts to a much bigger picture.

[Shit Luck]

i get it i have worked on race cars my whole life, wether for freinds or for paychecks.
I just love this constant bandwagon jumping in this forum.
visconti was the greatest...
then toni at fa20club was the greatest...
now its hate on this guy time..

R/T knows what they are doing, if you are too scared to play the game then dont have your car boosted and pushed by a tuner.

[Ryan P]

Feel like the toni hate bandwagon was pretty justified

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[cdrazic93]

They are not questioning R/T tuning practices business models and such. They are reminding them of their past experience, giving a simple warning that even though this is a customers car, it's still a bad idea.

We can say all we want, but in the end it's still @woode's car. He can do with his car and motor with which he pleases. Many people love the uncharted new territories, I myself think this is awesome.

Since he is going to build the block soon, I want someone; whether it be a shop car or customer car; to try 400 on pump with stock internals (providing all the nessecary dyno charts logs and other useful info graphs) and see how long it lasts, without any of this 'I told you so' or 'dont do that' stuff. Mainly to do this for the sake of pushing the envelope, and seeing where this motor has the real balls.