Part of the problem explained.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by ayau

It's weird that you think the car oversteers too much when there are people (@csg mike) who actually track these cars and think that a stock FRS actually undetsteers during certain situations.

Sliding is not oversteer but results from oversteer.

As every true performance driver knows, sliding is slow. The less power you have to waste the more damaging sliding is. Sliding is ALWAYS slower.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by headlikeahole

This is the main point that suberman has never understood. His measure of great handling is speed and form. That's not what the car is about.

If you wants a cheap little car that will be fast on a track or auto x get a Fiesta ST. That doesn't mean the Fiesta has better handling, it just means the Fiesta has better handling for that purpose.

It's also stupid to complain so much about the handling of the car when 500 bucks worth of suspension components would allow you to make it handle how ever you like.

Actually, it does mean the Fiesta has better handling.

No amount if money can change this car from a slider to a proper performance car by simply swapping out parts. A major revision is likely to be necessary.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Taro

This is still going on? Seriously?

Yes, ask yourself "what am I doing here?"

Then leave.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by wbradley

I believe it has been declared time and again that one of the main objectives the engineers managed to accomplish with this platform was to make it fun to drive WITHOUT having to travel at excessive (ie: dangerous, wreckless) speeds.

If you want to drive on a track it is fairly inexpensive to change control arms, bushings, springs, dampers, geometry, etc.

Why anyone would expect a lightweight, low slung rear wheel drive car to be "good" in the snow is beyond me. Suberman must be a genius, otherwise how could he be so stupid when it comes to common sense? Well at least he is good at inciting arguments. He isn't good at understanding physics, however.

I don't mind a heated discussion but the fact is that Suberman is trolling.

FIAT X1/9 was lighter and lower slung and a truly excellent winter car. And mid engined to boot. Heck, it was way more fun to drive and was designed in the 79's. The newest MX5 is going to blow our dear little sportscar into the weeds.

A light low slung car can develop excellent winter traction. In fact, a car that is poor on snow will most often be poor everywhere.

I am not quite a genius, but close enough for you to deal with.

Changing control arms won't be enough. The springs are fine. The dampers feel a little cheap but work fine.

For some of us "fun to drive" doesn't mean video game fun. This car could be better and it is a marketing gimmick that prevented it from being so. That marketing gimmick makes this car a very poor handling car in winter and on wet roads. That actually means it is not as good as it should be on dry roads. This stuff isn't opinion it can be measured and has been. A Ford Fiesta ST which is fwd and has less power is quicker.

If you really think this car is as fun as it could be you don't know much about suspension. A Lotus Elise makes this car look like a kiddy car.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Monogram

I'm still stuck on, "why would someone of his claimed I.Q. be arguing on the internet?" I'm guessing he's also waiting for the French model he picked up online.

And you are waiting for whom exactly?

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by Suberman

FIAT X1/9 was lighter and lower slung and a truly excellent winter car. And mid f'ng engined to boot.

A light low slung car can develop excellent winter traction. In fact, a car that is poor on snow will most often be poor everywhere.

I am not quite a genius, but close enough for you to deal with.

Changing control arms won't be enough. The springs are fine. The dampers feel a little cheap but work fine.

Umm mid engine, not the same weight bias as front engine. I bet the X/19 or the Porsche 914 drive like a bag of shit compared to the FT86 platform. Way outdated. The TR8 might be a better comparison lol.

I can't help but think you are throwing out all these negatives on our beloved cars just to gain attention, hence the label "troll". If you don't like the deliberate handling character of your car get rid of it and be done. Get the Cayman you were waiting for. Most importantly before you lecture us all on suspension geometry and dynamics earn you credentials to do so. I'm willing to bet Tada San knows a thing or two more than you on the subject. Maybe you can make this car out to be a modern day Corvair and pull a Ralph Nader. Who knows, litigation anyone?
On a more personal note, I modestly decline to discuss IQ. Suffice it to say I work wiith some pretty bright engineers that also modestly decline discussing their own intelligence. Humility, now there's a concept you have yet to learn. Sorry, can't help myself.

[FiRStsc10n]

Why does this have to be put in the Canada section? All this complaining is making us look bad lol. This should be in the Technical Topics section.

[headlikeahole]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Actually, it does mean the Fiesta has better handling.

No amount if money can change this car from a slider to a proper performance car by simply swapping out parts. A major revision is likely to be necessary.

Haha you say this as if the cars suspension setup is radically different from everything else on the road. Any car with good weight distribution has the potential for great handling. The cars handling characteristics come mostly from the rear bias in the spring rate. Evenly rated springs, camber and toe adjustment could nearly eliminate any oversteer. You would effectively be ruining the car however...

I already know your response to this comment so if you don't feel like wasting your genius it's ok, I probably won't read it anyway.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Sliding is not oversteer but results from oversteer.

As every true performance driver knows, sliding is slow. The less power you have to waste the more damaging sliding is. Sliding is ALWAYS slower.

Can you define exactly when you're sliding? During steady state cornering, initial turn in, exiting a corner, etc? Are you even talking about sliding on the track or when you're driving with 6'' of snow?

If we're talking about the pitfalls about this car's suspension design, why don't we talk about the lack of camber gain on MacPherson struts? How about the lack of factory adjustable camber? Let's be honest, this is a sub $20k 2 door coupe. It's going to have compromises.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by wbradley

I bet the X/19 or the Porsche 914 drive like a bag of shit compared to the FT86 platform. Way outdated.

Not really. My dd is a brz and my racecar is a 914. 4-cyl 2.0L boxer engine...

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by Suberman

If you really think this car is as fun as it could be you don't know much about suspension. A Lotus Elise makes this car look like a kiddy car.

Fun is a subjective term, pal. I had originally considered the Elise as my summer car but didn't relish the thought of wearing a kidney belt during my daily commute. If rear seats weren't necessary for my kids, the Cayman/Boxter would have topped my list. I love deliberately drifting the FR-S, it is an immature pleasure for me. Not interested in risking a write off or worse at the track, prefer an empty parking lot. Beats the kids at the school lot across the road screeching their parents front driver sedans. I even picked up a second set of Primacy tires, that's how much I enjoy them. Your opinion is definitely in the very small minority here and with 99% of auto journalists.

[RFB]

Originally Posted by wbradley

Umm mid engine, not the same weight bias as front engine. And I modestly decline to discuss IQ. Suffice it to say I work with some pretty bright engineers that also modestly decline discussing their own intelligence. Humility, now there's a concept you have yet to learn.

You forget he's a liar by toonerin jayzus ! (noofie pronunciation of lawyer).
Nuff of the lawyer jokes - - we should be talkin about the car -

It was designed to slide ! Its a DRIFT car.
For drift racing its ideal but drifting is a useless way to get around a track for fastest lap times.
I did simple sway bar changes and sticky tires to curtail oversteer that stopped the wasteful sliding.

Subota made a perfectly tunable car.

The big mistake was not in the suspension but in mid torque dip AND lack of ponies.
Unfortunately I doubt that the drive train is strong enough to absorb sufficient horsepower add ons to make the car world class.

Don't matter to me though - As much fun on the track as a Porsche without spending all those rubles ! And good on gas too !





CERBERUS

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by RFB

Don't matter to me though - As much fun on the track as a Porsche without spending all those rubles ! And good on gas too !





CERBERUS

And that's why we bought these cars in the first place. Economical, yet fun, & very tunable. You're not going to get "world class" for $30k, after all.



Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[DR 86]

Originally Posted by Suberman

And you are waiting for whom exactly?

Not getting a lot of cases coming your way, Counselor? The fact that you find it justifiable in terms of opportunity cost to write one long winded reply after another on here, not to mention fighting your own traffic tickets, coupled with the facts that A) you consider the FR-S/BRZ in the same league as a Cayman (at least the S version, and yes, I've driven both back to back on a race track) and B) are concerned about the winter capabilities of this car when any sane individual would just drive their other winter car, leads me to believe so.