Is the BRZ doomed?!?!

[mav1178]

If motorsports is any indication, the BRZ isn't going away in North American anytime soon.

Just got word that a BRZ will be campaigned in FD next year sponsored by Subaru of America.

-alex

[a2cpc]

Originally Posted by mav1178

If motorsports is any indication, the BRZ isn't going away in North American anytime soon.

Just got word that a BRZ will be campaigned in FD next year sponsored by Subaru of America.

-alex

What series is that? FD Nevermind. Although an event, not a racing series it is an event made for TV, similar to GRC. No real future in it once it loses its TV appeal.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by a2cpc

What series is that? FD Nevermind. Although an event, not a racing series it is an event made for TV, similar to GRC. No real future in it once it loses its TV appeal.

Call it what you want, it's not "made for TV"... that was only recently.

FD for a long time was pretty much just the event itself, without TV contracts.

Even if you don't want to label it as motorsports, it's still a good gauge of where Subaru sees this car if it wants to commit a car + sponsorship money to a top team in FD for next year.

And by the way: racing is not necessarily against a timed objective.

-alex

[a2cpc]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Call it what you want, it's not "made for TV"... that was only recently.

FD for a long time was pretty much just the event itself, without TV contracts.

Oh, I agree that it existed before TV. But its modern form and popularity owes itself to TV.

Originally Posted by mav1178

Even if you don't want to label it as motorsports, it's still a good gauge of where Subaru sees this car if it wants to commit a car + sponsorship money to a top team in FD for next year.

Subaru needs exposure in youth markets.
Look at what they do sponsor in the States. GRC, Rally, and now Drifting. Except for maybe Rally, they aren't doing it for the betterment of the sport or car, it is for advertising aimed at young/extreme sports people. Is there any more efficient way to get cheap advertising?

Originally Posted by mav1178

And by the way: racing is not necessarily against a timed objective.

-alex

But it is always about beating something, if not against a clock, to a specific point. Can you not win a Drift event and never pass your opponent? Drift is a tremendous example of driving skill.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by a2cpc

Oh, I agree that it existed before TV. But its modern form and popularity owes itself to TV.

Popularity, maybe, but a lot of that is grassroots. Drifting competitions have always been sort of "made for TV", even looking back at Option Videos in Japan 15-20 years ago.

D1GP was founded and promoted by all the various magazine/videos that Dai Inada owned. No coincidence that Keiichi Tsuchiya also hosts several videos with his other two co-judges.

I do know that me having being involved in drifting in the states since 2001, the popularity these days is a combination of several different factors, but the biggest part is the grassroots support and feeder series that keep it relevant.

Originally Posted by a2cpc

Subaru needs exposure in youth markets.
Look at what they do sponsor in the States. GRC, Rally, and now Drifting. Except for maybe Rally, they aren't doing it for the betterment of the sport or car, it is for advertising aimed at young/extreme sports people. Is there any more efficient way to get cheap advertising?

Every car maker needs exposure in youth markets. The older your demographic, the worse it gets in the long run...

Not going to dissect the details but every car maker that races is doing it for advertisement first, and "betterment of the sport" second.

Originally Posted by a2cpc

But it is always about beating something, if not against a clock, to a specific point. Can you not win a Drift event and never pass your opponent? Drift is a tremendous example of driving skill.

Why can't it just be about beating your opponent on specific criteria that is determined by 3rd party judges? The point of "not passing" in drifting is to show equal/superior driving skill versus your opponent. Anyone can chase/pass with a high HP car, but if you can match a car twice your power output turn for turn, then you'd get high marks.

In any case, it's not something going away. Not with a well-managed staff and series direction.

-alex

[gily25]

2 possibilities:
-Tada respectably can only speak about the Toyota brand for which he is responsible regardless of development partnerships.

-Toyota/Subaru partnership was only a limited engagement. Each got what they wanted and now with the cars having distinct groups of buyers they will split and develop the cars separately. We can already see this with the direction of the 10 and STI packages making their way to the market. If the cars were meant to always be identical there wouldn't be two unique packages.

[RurumariGhost]

Originally Posted by gily25

2 possibilities:
-Tada respectably can only speak about the Toyota brand for which he is responsible regardless of development partnerships.

-Toyota/Subaru partnership was only a limited engagement. Each got what they wanted and now with the cars having distinct groups of buyers they will split and develop the cars separately. We can already see this with the direction of the 10 and STI packages making their way to the market. If the cars were meant to always be identical there wouldn't be two unique packages.

Look at it from a marketing standpoint, there has to be brand differentiation. The ts, is not an out and out STI BRZ, its tuned by STI. And the differences with the 10 series are mostly aesthetic. Either way, my previous post about Toyota having to build a factory if they split still stands. That is a huge cost on top of all the R&D they already spent. A split is NOT in the works. Repeat after me. A split is NOT in the works.

[Diode Dynamics]

I'm not too worried about Toyota's future moves, unless it involves making a hybrid Toyota Supra....that...that just can't be!

That would be like an NFL team making it to the Super Bowl...everyone is super excited and glad it finally happened, and then announcing Matt Cassell or Mark Sanchez will be the starting QB instead of RG3 or Colin Capernick

Same thing for the BRZ and FRS, hopefully they don't do something stupid like add 300 pounds to the car for a more comfortable ride!

Nick C.

[thill]

Originally Posted by gily25

2 possibilities:


-Toyota/Subaru partnership was only a limited engagement. Each got what they wanted and now with the cars having distinct groups of buyers they will split and develop the cars separately. We can already see this with the direction of the 10 and STI packages making their way to the market. If the cars were meant to always be identical there wouldn't be two unique packages.

Right but the FR-S and BRZ differences are mostly astehtic and if the companies split on the partnership, that means Toyota would have to tool their own factories and workers to make limited 2 door RWD production runs. And Subaru would have to cut back on production.

I think we will actually see more partnerships when it comes to sports cars to reduce R&D and manufacturing costs.

[xwd]

I don't think a next-generation FR-S/BRZ is going to come for some time yet. At the point where they are developing a new chassis, etc. everything needs to be re-tooled anyways, so Toyota may decide to build their own or partner with a different manufacturer.

I wouldn't be completely surprised to see Subaru discontinue the BRZ after 5-6 years, or continue to build and improve on the current chassis while Toyota does their own thing. At some point it would make sense for Subaru to switch to their own DI system instead of using Toyota's. It's really the only Toyota part on the car. At some point Subaru will come out with a DI version of the FB20 and FB25 engines. The FB20 already makes about the same torque as the FA20, but only makes around 147hp since it only revs to 6000 RPM.

[a2cpc]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Popularity, maybe, but a lot of that is grassroots. Drifting competitions have always been sort of "made for TV", even looking back at Option Videos in Japan 15-20 years ago.

D1GP was founded and promoted by all the various magazine/videos that Dai Inada owned. No coincidence that Keiichi Tsuchiya also hosts several videos with his other two co-judges.

I do know that me having being involved in drifting in the states since 2001, the popularity these days is a combination of several different factors, but the biggest part is the grassroots support and feeder series that keep it relevant.

Maybe valid points, but without TV interest it would sill be a cult event. I am basing my opinions on being involved in TV sports productions since 1976. Remember Barrel Jumping?

Originally Posted by mav1178

Every car maker needs exposure in youth markets. The older your demographic, the worse it gets in the long run...

Not going to dissect the details but every car maker that races is doing it for advertisement first, and "betterment of the sport" second.

Not necessarily true. GM have a factory team? I don't know. I do know that when I think Ford or GM, I think NASCAR.

Originally Posted by mav1178

Why can't it just be about beating your opponent on specific criteria that is determined by 3rd party judges? I have said all along that drifting is a tremendous show of driving skill, but it is more art than racing.

Drift is to racing what Figure Skating is to Speed Skating. Both require a great amount of skill, but one is racing and one is art.

Originally Posted by mav1178

In any case, it's not something going away. Not with a well-managed staff and series direction.

It will return to cult status when TV tires of it.

[njccmd2002]

ok i know all you will hate me for this. but the BRZ is the Pontiac Vibe.... lol

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by a2cpc

Not necessarily true. GM have a factory team? I don't know. I do know that when I think Ford or GM, I think NASCAR.

...

Drift is to racing what Figure Skating is to Speed Skating. Both require a great amount of skill, but one is racing and one is art.

Yes, drifting is like figure skating. But to say it is not racing is discounting a whole range of automotive competitions, some which are not based on time alone.

As for GM and other domestic makers: Dodge used to compete in the series with the Viper/Charger for Sam Hubinette, and Ford has a current active sponsorship in the series with Vaughn Gitten.

But the bigger point is missed: motorsports as a whole needs active manufacturer participation to grow an active fanbase, as well as show relevance to the executives making the decisions to achieve the returns that marketing is supposed to bring. Without this, why would Subaru be interested in investing in, say, a ALMS/Le Mans BRZ in the GTE/Am class, if they can't even see a return on investment in lower forms of motorsports?

To give a factory sponsorship to a top professional (I won't say who it is in case there's an NDA surrounding the driver that I'm not aware of) is a pretty big deal in a major series, whether you see it as racing or not. One can only hope that it grows into a bigger thing.

-alex

[tonylop33]

Originally Posted by thill

Right but the FR-S and BRZ differences are mostly astehtic and if the companies split on the partnership, that means Toyota would have to tool their own factories and workers to make limited 2 door RWD production runs. And Subaru would have to cut back on production.

I think we will actually see more partnerships when it comes to sports cars to reduce R&D and manufacturing costs.

You are right...Mazda and Alfa Romeo are teaming up on the next Miata.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11301185...ally-confirmed