Price... what the FRS/BRZ should cost

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

22k-23k FRS M/A
25k-26k BRZ Premium M/A
27k-28k BRZ Limited M/A

That's close to what I posted in the equivalent NASIOC thread:

$23.0k FRS
$24.5k BRZ premium (FRS + HIDs, navigation)
$27.0k BRZ limited (BRZP + summer tires, fog-lights, keyless entry/start, auto/dual HVAC, spoiler)

[Longhorn248]

Originally Posted by FX-GT

transformerz, the real question I have is "does Subaru really want to sell this car?". I do not know. As you (and many others) point out, Scion cannot be priced too much lower than BRZ, so if BRZ is priced on a higher side, then so will be FR-S, automatically. Let's hope that will not happen.

Another VERY UNLIKELY scenario is that BRZ will be priced at a ridiculously high price and Scion will be still priced very reasonably. The reason this could happen is that Subaru manufactures both BRZ and FR-S. Subaru can maintain the volume to make a business sense in the US and avoid cannibalizing the WRX market at the same time.

You're making this assumption on the basis that all consumers are only focused on performance (turbo, awd) vs price. I would venture to guess that the majority of the market isn't as car crazy as those of us that post too much on car forums and are going to be looking at other metrics such as aesthetics and "cool factor". I guess I'm in the minority, but I'm one of the people that picked the BRZ even if it comes in around the same price or even slightly more than the WRX.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by FX-GT

I totally agree with you and have never said it will, so please stop quoting me. I NEVER said Subaru will be 5 - 6 K more expensive than Scion. So, STOP quoting me. I do not know what you do not understand.

You didn't say it, but the way you wrote your post IMPLIED it.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by FX-GT

transformerz, the real question I have is "does Subaru really want to sell this car?". I do not know. As you (and many others) point out, Scion cannot be priced too much lower than BRZ, so if BRZ is priced on a higher side, then so will be FR-S, automatically. Let's hope that will not happen.

Another VERY UNLIKELY scenario is that BRZ will be priced at a ridiculously high price and Scion will be still priced very reasonably. The reason this could happen is that Subaru manufactures both BRZ and FR-S. Subaru can maintain the volume to make a business sense in the US and avoid cannibalizing the WRX market at the same time.

Do you really believe that Subaru dumped this much time and money into a car that they want to fail? I understand you are probably younger and don't have a firm understanding of how businesses function, but that is definately NOT what Subaru wants to happen to their massive investment of time and money.

The WRX to BRZ comparison is a joke IMO for the most part. For those who want what the WRX offers, they will buy that. For those who want what the BRZ offers, they will buy that. The two could be priced exactly the same as they serve DIFFERENT MARKET SEGMENTS. I for one would never consider a WRX, even if the BRZ is priced higher (not saying I'd consider the BRZP at that price point either). On the flip side if my needs/preferences in cars dictated that I would want a WRX, I wouldn't bother looking at the BRZ because it would NOT fit my needs/wants.

There are a few who would go with a WRX if the price was the same but most of those comments I've seen here have to do with HP. Picking a car based on a HP number is pretty ridiculous IMO too. :shrug:

[driftk1ng]

I actually read somewhere saying that Subaru has confirmed the starting price for BRZ as $24,000, but not sure how reliable the source is. Did someone else come across that article. i'll post it if I can find it again.

[FX-GT]

Longhorn248, you are in the minority as are the people go crazy about performance of cars. My question is what benefits this car would really bring to Subaru and my guess is probably not much. If that's the case, would Subaru care how much it prices the BRZ? Probably, not. So, if a BRZ limited costs more than $30K and nobody buys it while FR-S is around $22 - $23K and sells moderately, Subaru would be fine. Subaru's main customers are the loyalists of more daily and practical AWD's and a smaller number of WRX/STI crazes.

[FX-GT]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Do you really believe that Subaru dumped this much time and money into a car that they want to fail?

Do you know as a fact that Subaru was a willing participant in this from the beginning? If so, I would agree with you. If not, your guess is ONLY as good as mine. By the way, your guess that you are older than I am does not make you any wiser and more knowledgeable how business functions, so you should stop making such an assumption

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by FX-GT

Do you know as a fact that Subaru was a willing participant in this from the beginning? If so, I would agree with you. If not, your guess is ONLY as good as mine. By the way, your guess that you are older than I am does not make you any wiser and more knowledgeable how business functions, so you should stop making such an assumption

Your statements make it clear that you don't understand how a business is successfully run. That's not an attack, but the statements you've made make it obvious. This project costs hundreds of millions of dollars to develop, and most likely really ran into the billions. The last estimate I saw in general from a senior analyst at IHS Global estimated for a new car on a brand new platform with a brand new powertrain (like the FR-S/BRZ) those costs can be around $6 billion dollars. No one throws that away.

Toyota owns a minority of FHI. If Subaru didn't see a business case for making this car they wouldn't have. Initially they even told Toyota to go away and killed the project. They later changed their mind (thankfully) and brought it back. While we don't know the inside discussions that happened during that time clearly Subaru saw a financial benefit that hinges on this vehicle being successful.

The car could still fail (it wouldn't be the first time) but it's not something Subaru is going to WANT to happen and it's certainly not something Subaru is going to try to force be pissing off the new customer group they could earn through this car.

If anyone is going to hurt this it's the Dealers. There are many of them bitching on subaru net about it hurting the image of Subaru by not being AWD and crying and threatening not to sell the car.. those dealers are stupid because the car doesn't hurt the current customer base and brings NEW customers to their dealership.. to not want that is idiotic. Luckily the better Subaru dealerships have realized this and are anxiously waiting for the cars release.

[FX-GT]

Dave, first read that I stated "VERY UNLIKELY". So, don't jump on what I wrote. Second, even in that scenario, Subaru would be OK as a manufacturer as it makes cars for Toyota/Scion, so that cost will not be thrown away. BRZ's would not move much in the US while a reasonable number of FR-S's sell and that's all. Subaru can recoup any portion of the costs it shared with Toyota. Finally, don't make it sound like a fact that I do not know the business. You do not know me. The fact that you made that statement without even knowing me makes you a really really botomless IDIOT and that's fact, not an attack.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by FX-GT

Longhorn248, you are in the minority as are the people go crazy about performance of cars. My question is what benefits this car would really bring to Subaru and my guess is probably not much. If that's the case, would Subaru care how much it prices the BRZ? Probably, not. So, if a BRZ limited costs more than $30K and nobody buys it while FR-S is around $22 - $23K and sells moderately, Subaru would be fine. Subaru's main customers are the loyalists of more daily and practical AWD's and a smaller number of WRX/STI crazes.

So you are suggesting that Subaru should be fine by forcing away a new group of customers who currently are not interested in their products? Just because they don't care?

Again, this isn't something a SUCCESSFUL business does.

[FX-GT]

Because they are playing with the controlling stakeholder. And that is not a fact, ONLY my guess.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by FX-GT

Dave, first read that I stated "VERY UNLIKELY". So, don't jump on what I wrote. Second, even in that scenario, Subaru would be OK as a manufacturer as it makes cars for Toyota/Scion, so that cost will not be thrown away. BRZ's would not move much in the US and that's all. Subaru can recoup any portion of the costs it shared with Toyota. Finally, don't make it sound like a fact that I do not know the business. You do not know me. The fact that you made that statement without even knowing me makes you a really really botomless IDIOT and that's fact, not an attack.

Don't make such statements and I wouldn't have made the remark. You are correct in that I don't know you, and therefore I can only base my opinions on the statements you have made here (and I also never attacked you on a personal level, stating that your comments make it seem that you don't understand how a business works isn't an attack IMO, unlike your misspelled personal attack against me). It will be priced where market analysis and sales predictions say it should be priced. It won't be priced on a whim to make it fail.

Subaru would make some, but they'd lose HUGE on service sales, OTC parts sales, direct sales, using their own car for racing as they fully plan on doing, etc. Not to mention the THOUSANDS of brand new customers they've have, which could add to sales in their existing product line when someone needs a car for their family/wife/children/etc, and word of mouth advertising, etc.

Subaru isn't stupid. They WANT this car to succeed. Can you provide one bit of evidence that supports your theory that they may not care if the car succeeds?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by FX-GT

Because they are playing with the controlling stakeholder. And that is not a fact, ONLY my guess.

Toyota owns 16.5% of FHI, that's not controlling.. they may be the largest but I haven't looked into it to know. All of the others would have to be very minor and there'd have to be a ton of them for Toyota to run the company with 16.5% though. GM sold the rest of their shares on the open market but I haven't seen any reference to who owns the rest (it may be all small parties, not sure, and I don't really care).

[FX-GT]

Before I answer your question, let me ask you this question first. Do you believe that this will in fact generte its own market and sell in a large volume? By the way, Toyota is the largest stakeholder, I guess it is not "controlling" as it does not own more than 50.0%., but by far the most influential.