Why would more power ruin the car??

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by bkharmony

Sorry to go OT, but does anyone have a link to a definitive "What part did Toyota/Subaru make" thread? I've searched for this in the past with no luck.

Same page lol, just gotta scroll up.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=33

[Aipex8]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I have worked in management for Teir One auto parts manufacturers for almost 30 years and see what happens in the background. It can take 6 to 10 people, hundreds of hours of work each, spread over a year period, just to get all the different countries to approve a slight change in the type of coating on a brake rotor. It isn't as simple as saying "this is what we are going to do" and doing it.
Toyota and Subaru went into this project knowing it would be a very low volume and margin vehicle. We are not privy to their business plan but they are not the fools that people seem to think and knew exactly what they were doing. It was done more as an exposure and buzz creator then to capture sales. They don't care if they sell high volumes since that is what their appliance vehicles are for. If there is a second gen that I highly doubt it will be greatly changed from what it is now. If they decide they want to make it a high volume sales vehicle than we can kiss what we have now goodbye.

With a new twin coming soon (Supra/Z5), I do wonder if Toyota would have two sports cars in their lineup, even if they are very different in terms of price and market. It's not like the 90's where you can choose between an RX-7 or Miata, 300ZX or 240SX, Supra or MR2, etc.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Aipex8

With a new twin coming soon (Supra/Z5), I do wonder if Toyota would have two sports cars in their lineup, even if they are very different in terms of price and market. It's not like the 90's where you can choose between an RX-7 or Miata, 300ZX or 240SX, Supra or MR2, etc.

They have said that for at least the short term they would like to have two. They were even talking about having 3 in some markets for a while but news on the SFR has totally dried up. I don't think the Supra and the 86 will actually compete with each other based on price point alone.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

That's not always true. I'm too lazy to go looking for the threads, but there have been several people on this board who built out for power and then either took their cars back to stock, rebuilt for a less powerful setup or just got rid of the car. They usually pop up in the "should I turbo" threads, telling people to forego the turbo or supercharger and stick with a header and tune or just leave it stock and enjoy it like it is. Or they simply no longer post here because they no longer have the car.

True, but was that done because the power made their car handle poorly, or was it for unrelated reasons like the motor became unreliable or difficult to tune correctly, or they were selling and parting out back to stock? I don't think I've ever read a thread where someone boosts power and then says my car handles so poorly now I want to go back to stock...not saying it hasn't happened - just sayin I haven't read about it.

[bkharmony]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

Same page lol, just gotta scroll up.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=33

Thanks. I didn't see it because I ignore all Tcoat's posts.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by bkharmony

Thanks. I didn't see it because I ignore all Tcoat's posts.

I KNEW IT!

[8RZ]

Originally Posted by bkharmony

Thanks. I didn't see it because I ignore all Tcoat's posts.

Tcoat wanted me to tell you, "HE KNEW IT!"

[guybo]

Originally Posted by venturaII

...there's certainly no practical advantage to them

I can't even begin..... This is one of the best handling cars on the market right now, has a COG lower than many sports cars 4x it's price. You are pretty clueless.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by guybo

I can't even begin.....

Then don't. This car's handling has zero to do with 'boxer'.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by venturaII

Suspension, brakes, interior, materials, etc. are mostly either Subaru parts bin, or jointly developed for the car. Like I said, it seems like very few things were sourced specifically from Toyota (importance aside).

And the boxer layout is heavy and large, and despite having a clean sheet of paper, they still shoved the motor far forward of the front wheels. There's been countless discussions regarding better overall packaging and weight savings of an I4. Yeah, CoG is slightly lower for a bare motor, but once you start factoring all the accessory componentry being located up high, that advantage mostly goes away. I do like the accessiblity of said components. Spark plugs could have easily been made far simpler to service. And 2x the complexity of valvetrain really doesn't make a strong argument for a boxer of any type. Back when they were pushrod motors, a boxer had a lot more appeal in terms of packaging. Subaru is hanging on to them because it's how they market themselves as different from the other manufacturers...there's certainly no practical advantage to them.

Toyota components:
ART Pistons**
Taiho Engine Bearings**
Nippon Gasket**
Toyota/Denso Direct Fuel Injectors**
OTICS Fuel Lines**
Denso Iridium Spark Plugs**
Denso Airbox and Filter (Toyota Size)**
Toyota/Aisin Transmission (Tuned by Subaru)**
Toyota/ExxonMobil Transmission and Differential Gear Oils (Factory
Toyota/JTEKT/Denso Electric Power Steering**
Sachs Dampers (Performance Package)**
Toyota ABS/EBD/VSC/TRAC Logic**
Denso Window Motors**
Denso HID Ballast**
Toyota Boshoku Seats (with Moriden and Alcantara Seat Fabrics)**
Tokai Rika Seat Belts
Toyota/Tokai Rika Clockspring and Multi-Function Switches**
Toyota/Tokai Rika/Denso/Jeco Climate Control Switches**
Toyota/Tokai Rika/Denso/Aisin Immobilizer/Remote/Keyless System
Toyota/Denso/Yazaki Body Control Module**
Toyota/Pioneer Multimedia System (FR-S/86)**
Pioneer Amplifier and Speakers**


Not going to even list the massive number of parts that are common to pretty much every Japanese manufacturer.


Beside it is a moot point anyway since neither Subaru nor Toyota are primarily parts manufacturers. If we want to play the game of which company actually MADE the parts than Toyota is the strong leader since they do indeed have parts manufacturing divisions while Subaru does not.

[venturaII]

Sachs dampers are a Toyota supplied component? Denso plugs, Nippon gaskets, bearings etc. for a Subaru engine are a Toyota supplied part? What Toyota model uses those components? I realize Denso is owned by Toyota, but that doesn't mean those components aren't already used in other Subaru platforms, and shared with the 86. We might be splitting hairs, but I don't consider that to be a Toyota sourced part. I mean, technically you could say EVERY Subaru is Toyota supplied due to a controlling interest owned by them...

[yurikaze]

I was part of one of the original consumer research clinics for the 86 twins, back in 2009. What the market lacked and enthusiasts wanted was an inexpensive, fun to drive car that not only was easy to modify, but that enthusiasts would want to modify.
Something in the vein of S-chassis and original AE86's.
Therefore, there was room left for improvements in the car in pretty much every area.

I am an automotive designer in the aftermarket, and the 86 twins have one of the largest aftermarkets in the world, because they are one of the most modified cars out there.
Pretty much anything you want to do with the car is addressed in the aftermarket.

One of the big reasons you don't see a factory 86 twin with a higher power output is because if they did come out with one, the price would be increased to the point where you would see two major arguments against it;
1."For this much money, you could get a _______ instead."
2."For less money, you could just get a base model and install a supercharger on it."

If you don't believe me on the second one, look at how many people were saying similar things about the BRZ tS? "For less money than the tS, I could install coil-overs and better tires, and be at tS level with cash in my pocket."

The truth of the matter is that the 86 is an old design, and at this point it wouldn't make financial sense to do a major re-engineering this late into the model-cycle, only to try to sell a more expensive version to all the people on the internet that say they would buy an 86 if it had more power, when in reality 98% of them are all talk, and would still find a reason not to buy it.
It makes much more sense to address it in a new generation of the car.

[tomm.brz]

Originally Posted by venturaII

Then don't. This car's handling has zero to do with 'boxer'.

really?zero?
you think a boxer engine doesnt contribute to Lower center of gravity? wpuld you think our cars would have this chassis without a boxer?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by venturaII

Sachs dampers are a Toyota supplied component? Denso plugs, Nippon gaskets, bearings etc. for a Subaru engine are a Toyota supplied part? What Toyota model uses those components? I realize Denso is owned by Toyota, but that doesn't mean those components aren't already used in other Subaru platforms, and shared with the 86. We might be splitting hairs, but I don't consider that to be a Toyota sourced part. I mean, technically you could say EVERY Subaru is Toyota supplied due to a controlling interest owned by them...

It does not say Toyota supplied but predominantly Toyota parts.
Toyota at least has a parts division that actually makes them. The whole point of the matter was that the car is not 98% Subaru as people like to say.