FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

The brakes can stand to be upgraded (and some folks were complaining about ice mode issues), but it's not the engine coolant that overheats -- it's an oil cooling problem that people who track the car run into. Solution: Fit an oil cooler.

Yeah... that was an overly harsh criticism.

If indeed people prefer the 350Z for the track (which has similar oil temp issues and handles like a cow by comparison) I'm guessing it has more to do with the fact that's less expensive to maintain than the newer 370Z.

All car reviews unanimously applauded the 370Z for being an improvement over it's older brother.

This isn't fanboy-ism, it's just a summary of the facts. 370Z > 350Z (except, perhaps, in cost to maintain for the track).

Hmm. That isn't what I've seen. The ice-mode issue becomes worse when you upgrade the brakes.....and I haven't seen anybody who does track days without major upgrades in brakes. There's also people who are switching to expensive aftermarket brake distribution to circumvent the ice-mode.

Even the import magazines consistently knock the 370z over the engine oil issues, and the aftermarket coolers void the warranty. Even the Nismo has this...which is supposed to be track oriented.

I would consider marketing a vehicle as a track-star and shipping it with brakes and engine coolers that require replacement to be safe on the track as irresponsible on Nissan's part.

And yes, the 370z handles better in every respect than the 350z, and the inside is way nicer. But Nissan used to have a more efficient engine-cooler on the 350z and they took it off of the 370z, for cost cutting reasons, from what I can tell.

The 2012 and 2013 updates to the 370z looks to address these issues....they're using completely different brake rotors (larger), and have heavily revised the front of the car to be more like the 350z, including much better ventilation to the brakes and a larger engine-oil cooler.

It's interesting to note that Nissan upgraded the brake ventilation and oil cooler WITHOUT announcing it...they hid it. 370z forum members had to get under their cars to even confirm there were changes, because they were not publisized by Nissan. Now, why do you think Nissan would do that?

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

No, they're not. This is simply coming for a jealous person who can't afford one. 370Z is a great car in almost every aspect. This is not meant to knock FRS/BRZ either, which I think will be a good car as well.

Erm....ok. Full disclosure, I could go out and buy a new 370z or Boss Mustang right now without having to finance either....and I considered both heavily and did a lot of research.

370z forums are well aware of these issues and have dedicated threads to help people circumvent them. It's bad. I have no interest in buying a new car that I have to immediately void the warranty on in order to safely track.

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-lightning-lap

http://www.the370z.com/engine-drivet...l-coolers.html

http://www.the370z.com/brakes-suspen...e-tracker.html

The above links all talk about either the brake or oil cooler issues. Some are from Car and Driver, which did an investigation about the brake fade after they crashed a 370z Nismo. The others are from the biggest 370z forum on the net, of which I am a member.

Remember, the people talking about the issues on the forum are owners. They already have it. They're not coming from a "jealous person who can't afford one" (lmao).

[Jordo!]

^^^ Yes, and I immediately called attention to those issues. Nevertheless, the 370Z still gets generally very good reviews and is widely regarded as a significant improvement in power, performance, luxury, etc. over the 350Z. Don't shoot the messenger

Anyway, as to why Nissan stealthily added the oil cooler (not sure about the brake vents)? Simple: they new there would be massive outrage and demands for retrofitting the new cooler by numerous customers -- which happened anyway, BTW.

FWIW, if I had to claim allegiance to a particular car manufacturer it would be Toyota, not Nissan. But this is the first time Toyota made a (potentially) really outstanding car in some time... hence, I bought a Z

And it is a truly outstanding (if imperfect) sports car for the money.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

^^^ Yes, and I immediately called attention to those issues. Nevertheless, the 370Z still gets generally very good reviews and is widely regarded as a significant improvement in power, performance, luxury, etc. over the 350Z. Don't shoot the messenger

Anyway, as to why Nissan stealthily added the oil cooler (not sure about the brake vents)? Simple: they new there would be massive outrage and demands for retrofitting the new cooler by numerous customers -- which happened anyway, BTW.

FWIW, if I had to claim allegiance to a particular car manufacturer it would be Toyota, not Nissan. But this is the first time Toyota made a (potentially) really outstanding car in some time... hence, I bought a Z

And it is a truly outstanding (if imperfect) sports car for the money.

Yeah the performance really is stellar, it hangs with the Cayman S. It's just not trackworthy....if I wanted to buy one used a few years from now and fit different brakes and an aftermarket oil cooler I'd have no problems with it....it's just not what I'm looking for at all "new." And given the amount of anger from the owner community, I think the way that Nissan went about doing things was....less than honorable.

The BRZ's limits and weight are lower and I highly doubt that it will have the cooling (brake or oil) issues due to that. I just want a reasonably fast car with great handling that I can drive hard without worrying about a bunch of crap.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Hmm. That isn't what I've seen. The ice-mode issue becomes worse when you upgrade the brakes.....and I haven't seen anybody who does track days without major upgrades in brakes. There's also people who are switching to expensive aftermarket brake distribution to circumvent the ice-mode.

Even the import magazines consistently knock the 370z over the engine oil issues, and the aftermarket coolers void the warranty. Even the Nismo has this...which is supposed to be track oriented.

I would consider marketing a vehicle as a track-star and shipping it with brakes and engine coolers that require replacement to be safe on the track as irresponsible on Nissan's part.

And yes, the 370z handles better in every respect than the 350z, and the inside is way nicer. But Nissan used to have a more efficient engine-cooler on the 350z and they took it off of the 370z, for cost cutting reasons, from what I can tell.

The 2012 and 2013 updates to the 370z looks to address these issues....they're using completely different brake rotors (larger), and have heavily revised the front of the car to be more like the 350z, including much better ventilation to the brakes and a larger engine-oil cooler.

It's interesting to note that Nissan upgraded the brake ventilation and oil cooler WITHOUT announcing it...they hid it. 370z forum members had to get under their cars to even confirm there were changes, because they were not publisized by Nissan. Now, why do you think Nissan would do that?

The oil gets cooked by a few factors.

1. RPM
2. VVEL

VVEL is a HUGE contributor to oil temps, and high RPM exacerbates that. Even without load, higher RPM will heat up the oil due to VVEL.

As for brakes... I track with just upgraded pads and fluid. I must be doing something wrong

[serialk11r]

VVEL is that bad? I guess the engine does produce rather low hp for its displacement/revs, high friction would explain that.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Mike

The oil gets cooked by a few factors.

1. RPM
2. VVEL

VVEL is a HUGE contributor to oil temps, and high RPM exacerbates that. Even without load, higher RPM will heat up the oil due to VVEL.

As for brakes... I track with just upgraded pads and fluid. I must be doing something wrong

*looks at ur profile*

You drive an S2000......

If that's not accurate and you are now in a 370z, there's WELL documented issues with the brakes, including with upgraded pads activating the "ice-mode" ABS. All the forums I've looked through harp on it and many members urge people looking to track the car to be very careful or to not track it until the required upgrades are done. Even with high performance pads and brake fluid people are still experiencing extreme amounts of fade, far far greater than should be experienced on a performance car.

*shrug* I can only go by what I read from the people who own them. I know I would track the thing and once I got enough time in the car to actually be fast with it, it would be a major issue.

The data from Car and Driver frankly frightens me...the tests they did showed how much higher the temperatures are than normal.....yeah, just not for me.

As for the engine oil issue, it would not surprise me at all if the VVEL was the cause. The VQ series of engines came out a lonnngggggg time ago, and if it wasn't designed around that system to begin with (I don't know if it was, not familiar enough with the engine family), adding it in the interest of more power could understandably cause issues.

The other issue is there's just no airflow, to the front brakes or the engine compartment. There's a reason cold-air intakes have such a big benefit on the 370z

[crazyyankeefan]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

FWIW, if I had to claim allegiance to a particular car manufacturer it would be Toyota, not Nissan. But this is the first time Toyota made a (potentially) really outstanding car in some time... hence, I bought a Z

And it is a truly outstanding (if imperfect) sports car for the money.

If you're talking about regular cars, sure...go for Toyota. But when it comes to sports car, look no further other than Nissan. If you consider the heritage and history of Japanese sports car, there's simply no match from any manufacturers for Nissan. The GT-R alone should say it all, and the Z cars too have a lone history.

[crazyyankeefan]

Originally Posted by Maxim

*looks at ur profile*

You drive an S2000......

If that's not accurate and you are now in a 370z, there's WELL documented issues with the brakes, including with upgraded pads activating the "ice-mode" ABS. All the forums I've looked through harp on it and many members urge people looking to track the car to be very careful or to not track it until the required upgrades are done. Even with high performance pads and brake fluid people are still experiencing extreme amounts of fade, far far greater than should be experienced on a performance car.

*shrug* I can only go by what I read from the people who own them. I know I would track the thing and once I got enough time in the car to actually be fast with it, it would be a major issue.

The data from Car and Driver frankly frightens me...the tests they did showed how much higher the temperatures are than normal.....yeah, just not for me.

As for the engine oil issue, it would not surprise me at all if the VVEL was the cause. The VQ series of engines came out a lonnngggggg time ago, and if it wasn't designed around that system to begin with (I don't know if it was, not familiar enough with the engine family), adding it in the interest of more power could understandably cause issues.

The other issue is there's just no airflow, to the front brakes or the engine compartment. There's a reason cold-air intakes have such a big benefit on the 370z

totally agree with you on this. VVEL contributes a lot to the 370Z oil temp issue. VQ35, without VVEL, did not have this problem, which was a near perfect engine in every way. I personally think Nissan should just increase the displacement and power from VQ35 without adding this VVEL thing

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

If you're talking about regular cars, sure...go for Toyota. But when it comes to sports car, look no further other than Nissan. If you consider the heritage and history of Japanese sports car, there's simply no match from any manufacturers for Nissan. The GT-R alone should say it all, and the Z cars too have a lone history.

Fanboi much? Because Toyota has such a terrible motorsports history... [/sarcasm]

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

If you're talking about regular cars, sure...go for Toyota. But when it comes to sports car, look no further other than Nissan. If you consider the heritage and history of Japanese sports car, there's simply no match from any manufacturers for Nissan.

The FR-S/BRZ pay MUCH greater homage to the original 240Z than any Nissan since the S13 240SX.

For me, heritage is meaningless, esp. when Nissan ignores it themselves!

The GT-R alone should say it all, and the Z cars too have a lone history.

Neither the GT-R nor the original Z-cars make the 370Z a better car. Great cars MUST stand on their own. The 370Z is a pretty fast car, and I'm sure it's a great street car. But it definitely has issues.

IMO, it doesn't need more displacement or more power or better brakes, it needs to weigh ~500 lb. less!

Here's hoping the FR-S/BRZ twins light a fire under Nissan's arse and they develop a new 240SX/Silvia (in the S13 vein), and then develop a NEW new Z on that platform instead of the G.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The FR-S/BRZ pay MUCH greater homage to the original 240Z than any Nissan since the S13 240SX.

For me, heritage is meaningless, esp. when Nissan ignores it themselves!


Neither the GT-R nor the original Z-cars make the 370Z a better car. Great cars MUST stand on their own. The 370Z is a pretty fast car, and I'm sure it's a great street car. But it definitely has issues.

IMO, it doesn't need more displacement or more power or better brakes, it needs to weigh ~500 lb. less!

Here's hoping the FR-S/BRZ twins light a fire under Nissan's arse and they develop a new 240SX/Silvia (in the S13 vein), and then develop a NEW new Z on that platform instead of the G.

How did I know you would say that? You have the highest percentage of posts referring to weight than anyone on here.

[crazyyankeefan]

Originally Posted by ZDan

IMO, it doesn't need more displacement or more power or better brakes, it needs to weigh ~500 lb. less!

Here's hoping the FR-S/BRZ twins light a fire under Nissan's arse and they develop a new 240SX/Silvia (in the S13 vein), and then develop a NEW new Z on that platform instead of the G.

You should know that weight alone means nothing. It's the power-to-weight ration that matters, which is where the FR-S/BRZ fall short

[ZDan]

I know all about power to weight ratio (as in, 2815 lb, 500+hp).

For acceleration and general performance, yeah, power/weight rules.

But light weight is almost always a lot more fun and engaging to drive under 99th %ile real-world street usage. For some of us, anyway... For others, Mustangs, Genesis Coupes, etc. beckon...