Open Source Electric Supercharger

[Luckrider]

I am still rooting for you no matter the outcome purely from an intrigued prospective and due to the amount of effort, work, and diligence that you have put into it.

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Luckrider

I am still rooting for you no matter the outcome purely from an intrigued prospective and due to the amount of effort, work, and diligence that you have put into it.

Thanks, I know I'll get it to work eventually. Failures are to be expected with developing this kind of thing, and I'm really doing it as an educational process for myself. I've already learned way more then I would have ever expected about tuning, and have refreshed some of my electronics skills that were getting a little rusty.

Know that I can control it and tune it the way I wanted is a huge accomplishment. The compressor redesign won't be very hard, but unless I come up with a very clever idea it's going to take a lot more custom machining which will be harder for others to replicate if that want to.

After seeing the speed and heat generated by the mother I'm also thinking I may test a larger compressor and motor operating at a slower RPM.

[Tenthousanddays]

Awesome build Neutron! Love the initiative here. As a long time supporter of hybrid style forced induction, I love this. Quick off topic, weren't you a CRZ owner? I'm pretty sure I saw you over on the Zed forums a while ago.

Anyway, I noticed you're using the Turnigy motor to power the set up, how is it working out? I've read through the entire Phantom ESC thread, and it seems the motor you're using looks similar to Robs. I made the suggestion over there to use a motor from a small company in PA called "eCycle". The motor would definitely be larger than what you're currently using, but I have a feeling it would be more efficient and deliver more torque. The benefit of eCycle's motors is they are solid staters, rather than wound coils.

Not sure if you caught the thread I started over on the Crz forums relating to it... but I got in touch with the owner of eCycle a while back about doing something like this for the Honda, but it didn't gain traction there...

Here's a picture just to get an idea of what Dan over at eCycle has worked up:



His motor is paired with a Borg-Warner S200, which I imagine can deliver a ton of boost. I never really sat down and talked with him about it since there was no interest on the Crz forums for such a product, but since people here are into the idea I can definitely get in touch with him about obtaining some of his motors or motor/compressor combos!

The motor runs anywhere between 12-36v DC, so several different battery combos are possible. He's a pretty big advocate of SuperCaps too, so I'm sure he'd love to chat about it.


--EDIT--

Just found some details about the motor used on this setup... It was just recently announced for production, and is only 5" in diameter, with up to 7kW of power!!

"Sharing many design features with the popular SolidSlot™ brushless motor/generator, the LM5
measures less than 5 inches in diameter and serves both higher speed and lower power
applications. Low voltage versions of the LM5 incorporate an integrated electronic commutator
and can deliver up to 7kW, depending on model. The low voltage LM5 may also be used like a
conventional DC motor, in that it can be operated directly from a battery or in conjunction with a
DC controller"

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Tenthousanddays

Awesome build Neutron! Love the initiative here. As a long time supporter of hybrid style forced induction, I love this. Quick off topic, weren't you a CRZ owner? I'm pretty sure I saw you over on the Zed forums a while ago.

Anyway, I noticed you're using the Turnigy motor to power the set up, how is it working out? I've read through the entire Phantom ESC thread, and it seems the motor you're using looks similar to Robs. I made the suggestion over there to use a motor from a small company in PA called "eCycle". The motor would definitely be larger than what you're currently using, but I have a feeling it would be more efficient and deliver more torque. The benefit of eCycle's motors is they are solid staters, rather than wound coils.

Not sure if you caught the thread I started over on the Crz forums relating to it... but I got in touch with the owner of eCycle a while back about doing something like this for the Honda, but it didn't gain traction there...

Here's a picture just to get an idea of what Dan over at eCycle has worked up:



His motor is paired with a Borg-Warner S200, which I imagine can deliver a ton of boost. I never really sat down and talked with him about it since there was no interest on the Crz forums for such a product, but since people here are into the idea I can definitely get in touch with him about obtaining some of his motors or motor/compressor combos!

The motor runs anywhere between 12-36v DC, so several different battery combos are possible. He's a pretty big advocate of SuperCaps too, so I'm sure he'd love to chat about it.


--EDIT--

Just found some details about the motor used on this setup... It was just recently announced for production, and is only 5" in diameter, with up to 7kW of power!!

"Sharing many design features with the popular SolidSlot™ brushless motor/generator, the LM5
measures less than 5 inches in diameter and serves both higher speed and lower power
applications. Low voltage versions of the LM5 incorporate an integrated electronic commutator
and can deliver up to 7kW, depending on model. The low voltage LM5 may also be used like a
conventional DC motor, in that it can be operated directly from a battery or in conjunction with a
DC controller"

Thanks,

Yep I was a CR-Z owner. I started working from home so I no longer had a commute and could have something a little less practical and absolutely love the BRZ so I switched.

Right now motors are the biggest problem. The motrs I've been testing can generate the power needed but the heat the generate is ridiclious. I've already damaged one. It still runs but poorly. I'll have to check out eCycle and the thread on the CR-Z forum. I'd really like something beefier then these tiny RC motors.

I'm taking a break right now while I rethink my design. You're post encourages me to look at other motor options. Possibly even a slower motor with some sort of transmission. I'd love to use a centrifugal supercharger but they are pretty pricy for my personal experimentation.

[Tenthousanddays]

Originally Posted by neutron256

Thanks,

Yep I was a CR-Z owner. I started working from home so I no longer had a commute and could have something a little less practical and absolutely love the BRZ so I switched.

Right now motors are the biggest problem. The motrs I've been testing can generate the power needed but the heat the generate is ridiclious. I've already damaged one. It still runs but poorly. I'll have to check out eCycle and the thread on the CR-Z forum. I'd really like something beefier then these tiny RC motors.

I'm taking a break right now while I rethink my design. You're post encourages me to look at other motor options. Possibly even a slower motor with some sort of transmission. I'd love to use a centrifugal supercharger but they are pretty pricy for my personal experimentation.

The Borg-Warner scroll in the setup above is something around 1100 for both sides of the turbo, which is much higher than the blower you're using (200 something IIRC).

Unfortunately the eCycle website is... well... crap... so you'll have a hard time finding raw data. Previously the data for the motors was on the website, but it has been taken down. Dan seems to spend more time trying to make sure nobody copies his idea than actually selling it.

I can tell you for sure that the LM5 motor is going to be more expensive than the hobby motors you've been using, but it's a hell of a lot beefier. Unfortunately I don't have the proper equipment to do development along side of you, and having recently relocated to NJ I'm a bit far from the eCycle shop now, but I'd be more than happy to get back in touch with Dan and see if he can work up some price points, or better yet demo units to mess around with (whether that be just the motor, or the motor/turbo combo).

I'd definitely like a ticket to ride on the wagon, and I'd be happy to help in whatever way I can. I want one!

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Tenthousanddays

The Borg-Warner scroll in the setup above is something around 1100 for both sides of the turbo, which is much higher than the blower you're using (200 something IIRC).

Unfortunately the eCycle website is... well... crap... so you'll have a hard time finding raw data. Previously the data for the motors was on the website, but it has been taken down. Dan seems to spend more time trying to make sure nobody copies his idea than actually selling it.

I can tell you for sure that the LM5 motor is going to be more expensive than the hobby motors you've been using, but it's a hell of a lot beefier. Unfortunately I don't have the proper equipment to do development along side of you, and having recently relocated to NJ I'm a bit far from the eCycle shop now, but I'd be more than happy to get back in touch with Dan and see if he can work up some price points, or better yet demo units to mess around with (whether that be just the motor, or the motor/turbo combo).

I'd definitely like a ticket to ride on the wagon, and I'd be happy to help in whatever way I can. I want one!

I'd love to find out more, and if he'd be willing to sell or lend me a unit for testing/development that would be great. Let me know what you can find out.

[Tenthousanddays]

Originally Posted by neutron256

I'd love to find out more, and if he'd be willing to sell or lend me a unit for testing/development that would be great. Let me know what you can find out.

Sure thing! Like I mentioned before, he's weary of divulging information about his product - but hopefully I can get some technical data about what kind of speed the motor is capable of. I'll also see if I can get some pricing specifications from him. When we worked with him back in college he was willing to shell out whatever time equipment and materials necessary to complete the project, so maybe he'd be happy to hook us up with some demo units. Once I find something out, I'll let you know!

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Tenthousanddays

Sure thing! Like I mentioned before, he's weary of divulging information about his product - but hopefully I can get some technical data about what kind of speed the motor is capable of. I'll also see if I can get some pricing specifications from him. When we worked with him back in college he was willing to shell out whatever time equipment and materials necessary to complete the project, so maybe he'd be happy to hook us up with some demo units. Once I find something out, I'll let you know!

Looking at the pics the motor appears to be off center from the compressor housing. I'd bet he's using some sort of a transmission to step up the output speed of the motor.

[Tenthousanddays]

Originally Posted by neutron256

Looking at the pics the motor appears to be off center from the compressor housing. I'd bet he's using some sort of a transmission to step up the output speed of the motor.

Yep... You're 100% right. I just had a quick phone chat with him. the system you're looking at is his "big" setup. ~$2500 for it. Integrated gearing to allow for higher impeller speed. He's placing this around 15lbs of boost

Now, he did mention they have developed a direct drive system, much lower in price point. 24v, running off of the LM5 motor - putting out between 7-9PSI. He wants to sell this at the 1000-1500 mark. He wouldn't give me too much information yet, since the LM5 was just announced to the public on the 24th, but he did mention that within a few weeks their website will be receiving a large overhaul, and will including specs of both the geared and direct drive systems.

7PSI is a definite, whereas 9PSI is the top range. At something around $1500 that's some serious pressure! Granted, that's not including batteries/charging system/ESC (to my knowledge).

Basically what I got from him is, he doesn't want to sell just the motor. He wants to sell this as 1 piece, since they've already done all of the R&D and manufacturing on it. Basically implementation on the vehicle would be the final stage.

I'll be patiently F5ing the hell out of the website until the final details are released, and at that point we can look into getting our hands on a couple of units.

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Tenthousanddays

Yep... You're 100% right. I just had a quick phone chat with him. the system you're looking at is his "big" setup. ~$2500 for it. Integrated gearing to allow for higher impeller speed. He's placing this around 15lbs of boost

Now, he did mention they have developed a direct drive system, much lower in price point. 24v, running off of the LM5 motor - putting out between 7-9PSI. He wants to sell this at the 1000-1500 mark. He wouldn't give me too much information yet, since the LM5 was just announced to the public on the 24th, but he did mention that within a few weeks their website will be receiving a large overhaul, and will including specs of both the geared and direct drive systems.

7PSI is a definite, whereas 9PSI is the top range. At something around $1500 that's some serious pressure! Granted, that's not including batteries/charging system/ESC (to my knowledge).

Basically what I got from him is, he doesn't want to sell just the motor. He wants to sell this as 1 piece, since they've already done all of the R&D and manufacturing on it. Basically implementation on the vehicle would be the final stage.

I'll be patiently F5ing the hell out of the website until the final details are released, and at that point we can look into getting our hands on a couple of units.

$1500 sounds more reasonable for my concept I assume the motor controller is integrated. I imagine the direct drive is a little lighter and more compact.

[Tenthousanddays]

Originally Posted by neutron256

$1500 sounds more reasonable for my concept I assume the motor controller is integrated. I imagine the direct drive is a little lighter and more compact.

Definitely. I'm hoping we can get more towards the 1k price point. It uses a smaller blower than the S200 in the geared, so yes its definitely lighter and more compact. It utilizes the same motor as the geared. I'm also assuming the controller is integrated. But I can find that out for certain.

If you want to get your hands on one, I'll ask him to send one out. Unfortunately I'm about to pay for an engagement ring... So I won't be joining you. Unless we can work out a deal with him! If there's interest from some other users, we can probably get a multi-unit discount.

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Tenthousanddays

Definitely. I'm hoping we can get more towards the 1k price point. It uses a smaller blower than the S200 in the geared, so yes its definitely lighter and more compact. It utilizes the same motor as the geared. I'm also assuming the controller is integrated. But I can find that out for certain.

If you want to get your hands on one, I'll ask him to send one out. Unfortunately I'm about to pay for an engagement ring... So I won't be joining you. Unless we can work out a deal with him! If there's interest from some other users, we can probably get a multi-unit discount.

Sure if you can find out the price for the direct drive I'd be very interested in purchasing one. And I'm sure they've already done plenty of testing but I'd be happy to work with them on testing it for the FA20 and providing feedback.

I'd be curious to find out what sort of control system they used on other vehicles.

[Tenthousanddays]

Originally Posted by neutron256

Sure if you can find out the price for the direct drive I'd be very interested in purchasing one. And I'm sure they've already done plenty of testing but I'd be happy to work with them on testing it for the FA20 and providing feedback.

I'd be curious to find out what sort of control system they used on other vehicles.

I'll get that info for you. I'm thinking that he wants to sell this to individuals to produce the system for themselves, or to tuner companies interested in mass producing the entire system. I'll find out what his aim is. They're not exactly a "tuner" company, so I doubt they're interested in making an end to end system.

Having said that, I think the ability is there to produce a bolt on system that can be sold "mass market", with the direct-drive eCycle electric super charger as the base to the kit. Proof of concept needs to be demonstrated to the proper parties in order for it to reach production and marketing as a bolt on kit. The folks over at TurboKits.com had interest when I brought the subject up over on the Crz forums, so getting a sponsor like them to produce an end-to-end system might prove beneficial to everyone involved.

Not sure if I'm taking this beyond the level you're interested in going to... But what can I say... I'm a "Big Thinker"

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Tenthousanddays

I'll get that info for you. I'm thinking that he wants to sell this to individuals to produce the system for themselves, or to tuner companies interested in mass producing the entire system. I'll find out what his aim is. They're not exactly a "tuner" company, so I doubt they're interested in making an end to end system.

Having said that, I think the ability is there to produce a bolt on system that can be sold "mass market", with the direct-drive eCycle electric super charger as the base to the kit. Proof of concept needs to be demonstrated to the proper parties in order for it to reach production and marketing as a bolt on kit. The folks over at TurboKits.com had interest when I brought the subject up over on the Crz forums, so getting a sponsor like them to produce an end-to-end system might prove beneficial to everyone involved.

Not sure if I'm taking this beyond the level you're interested in going to... But what can I say... I'm a "Big Thinker"

I'm not that interested in the business side, but I love the idea of an off the shelf motor/compressor that can be adapted by tuners to various platforms and I'm more then willing to help be the proof of concept. I've already got a pretty solid charging/control system, it's just my motor and compressor that are troublesome so I'd love to test out this design.