Perrin vs. GrimmSpeed strut tower braces - differences?

[tahdizzle]

Just another .02.

I personally think that you are all just going through a placebo affect. I really don't believe there is any quantifiable benefit from a strut tower brace.

If you guys are happy with a strut tower brace, more power to you. But I have seen a before/after affect of a strut tower brace at autoX on the twins. And there is really no difference that can be quantified, due to many different variables.

If lap times were reduced an average of lets say .3 tenths over lets say 10 runs, then I would see some credence in your claims that "it makes a difference", but I have not seen any testing to prove that it does.

But hey, whatever tickles your prostate.

P.S. Even a 3 tenths improvement over 10 runs could be attributed to the driver. So even then it could be argued either way.

[Decay107]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

Just another .02.

I personally think that you are all just going through a placebo affect. I really don't believe there is any quantifiable benefit from a strut tower brace.

If you guys are happy with a strut tower brace, more power to you. But I have seen a before/after affect of a strut tower brace at autoX on the twins. And there is really no difference that can be quantified, due to many different variables.

If lap times were reduced an average of lets say .3 tenths over lets say 10 runs, then I would see some credence in your claims that "it makes a difference", but I have not seen any testing to prove that it does.

But hey, whatever tickles your prostate.

P.S. Even a 3 tenths improvement over 10 runs could be attributed to the driver. So even then it could be argued either way.

I think the difference is much more subjective, falling into the "feel" category. Does the front end "feel" stiffer and more connected with a tower brace? Yes. Have people done blind tests on this chassis confirming it? Yes. (buried somewhere in the GS development thread) Did it improve my lap-times? No.

But I'm not going to remove it because it makes the car feel different in what I perceive to be a positive way.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

Just another .02.

I personally think that you are all just going through a placebo affect. I really don't believe there is any quantifiable benefit from a strut tower brace.

If you guys are happy with a strut tower brace, more power to you. But I have seen a before/after affect of a strut tower brace at autoX on the twins. And there is really no difference that can be quantified, due to many different variables.

If lap times were reduced an average of lets say .3 tenths over lets say 10 runs, then I would see some credence in your claims that "it makes a difference", but I have not seen any testing to prove that it does.

But hey, whatever tickles your prostate.

P.S. Even a 3 tenths improvement over 10 runs could be attributed to the driver. So even then it could be argued either way.

I think your entire argument is flawed.

1-You admit a driver and other conditions can account for 3 tenths (hypothetical out of ass figure). So why can't a change by the driver or other environmental conditions negate a potential advantage to improved chassis stiffness?

2-I already pointed out just adding increased stiffness doesn't guarantee anything. If I add stickier rubber which has potentially more grip but adds 3 lbs more per corner will I go slower or faster on a 2800lb car with 120lbs/ft of torque (even though my grip envelope has increased)? Slower because I haven't done anything to take advantage of the new found potential.

3-You haven't tried it and are talking about abstract unrelated hypotheticals that make no sense for form a conclusion of "placebo". This is just ignorant.

4-Looking for 0.3 secs from an autocross as a quantifiable metric to indicate strut bars do NOT increase chassis rigidity is ridiculous and wrong.

5-Did you do a before and after at the autox comparing laptimes with a lightweight battery versus stock? How about the passenger seat removed? How about the spare? What were the times before and after? Do those things "make a difference" in your objective mind? Do any of those things require any changes in settings or driver input to best maximize those changes and translate them to gains in laptime?

6-If you want actual "proof" I can link a front tower bar from another car I have with clearly visible cracks from mechanical stress over years of use. Stress that was obviously absorbed by the bar and not the chassis. That's quantifiable proof, not talking BS about autocross lap times to prove a claim about mechanical engineering.

If I link the pic, will you stop QQing about your wisdom?

Otherwise be a man, find someplace with an acceptable return policy and put on a Hotchkiss and just drive up and down off your driveway and come back and say whether you noticed no obvious difference if you really care that much to keep crying about it. Otherwise stop pontificating like an expert in something you have no experience with and basically calling everyone else with actual user experience deluded or stupid (yes that's what invoking the placebo claim on others essentially means).

Till then, just stop commenting about things you don't understand please.

Thanks.

[babydriver]

Originally Posted by Decay107

I think the difference is much more subjective, falling into the "feel" category. Does the front end "feel" stiffer and more connected with a tower brace? Yes. Have people done blind tests on this chassis confirming it? Yes. (buried somewhere in the GS development thread) Did it improve my lap-times? No.

But I'm not going to remove it because it makes the car feel different in what I perceive to be a positive way.

I propose an experiment to lay this matter to rest. With the GrimmSpeed, it is the easiest thing in the world to take it on or off. Here is the outline of the experiment:

1. Someone with access to a track, a GrimmSpeed brace and a twin does a series of timed runs, all on the same day and under the same weather conditions. Same tires and driver, obviously.

2. Half of these runs are with the bar, and the other half are without. I suggest either 10 or 20 runs with each configuration. The more runs, the better the data set, but there will be a time constraint: how much time there is available to make the runs in the same day. 10 each is probably adequate, 20 each would be better.

3. Run a t-test (statistical test) to determine if there is any significant difference between these run times. Or if you prefer, a Chi-Squared test since there is basically only one variable (with the bar or without).

4. Question answered.

I don't have access to a track where I live. I know that many of the Cali types on the list do. What about it? Is anyone willing to step up? I am able to do the statistical analysis, since I have both R and SPSS on my computer at home. Hell, you could do this in Excel if you wanted to.

Any takers?

Science. What a concept!

[tahdizzle]

Originally Posted by abraxis

I think your entire argument is flawed.

1-You admit a driver and other conditions can account for 3 tenths (hypothetical out of ass figure). So why can't a change by the driver or other environmental conditions negate a potential advantage to improved chassis stiffness?

2-I already pointed out just adding increased stiffness doesn't guarantee anything. If I add stickier rubber which has potentially more grip but adds 3 lbs more per corner will I go slower or faster on a 2800lb car with 120lbs/ft of torque (even though my grip envelope has increased)? Slower because I haven't done anything to take advantage of the new found potential.

3-You haven't tried it and are talking about abstract unrelated hypotheticals that make no sense for form a conclusion of "placebo". This is just ignorant.

4-Looking for 0.3 secs from an autocross as a quantifiable metric to indicate strut bars do NOT increase chassis rigidity is ridiculous and wrong.

5-Did you do a before and after at the autox comparing laptimes with a lightweight battery versus stock? How about the passenger seat removed? How about the spare? What were the times before and after? Do those things "make a difference" in your objective mind? Do any of those things require any changes in settings or driver input to best maximize those changes and translate them to gains in laptime?

6-If you want actual "proof" I can link a front tower bar from another car I have with clearly visible cracks from mechanical stress over years of use. Stress that was obviously absorbed by the bar and not the chassis. That's quantifiable proof, not talking BS about autocross lap times to prove a claim about mechanical engineering.

If I link the pic, will you stop QQing about your wisdom?

Otherwise be a man, find someplace with an acceptable return policy and put on a Hotchkiss and just drive up and down off your driveway and come back and say whether you noticed no obvious difference if you really care that much to keep crying about it. Otherwise stop pontificating like an expert in something you have no experience with and basically calling everyone else with actual user experience deluded or stupid (yes that's what invoking the placebo claim on others essentially means).

Till then, just stop commenting about things you don't understand please.

Thanks.

Wow! Such passion!

I said it was my .02, I said it could be argued both ways. I never said it didn't add rigidity. I said there was no quantifiable performance gain from adding a strut tower brace.

I also said if it tickles your prostate to have one, more power to you.

So go flex your internet tough guy stuff on another thread

[RFB]

Originally Posted by babydriver

THAT makes perfect sense! I do a lot of hi-fi related stuff and two things I know well -- stiffening a speaker cabinet by bracing internally raises the fundamental resonant frequency of the cabinet to a higher pitch, where it is MUCH easier to kill with damping material.

Second, a more rigid tonearm (for a record turntable) accomplishes the same thing, but also provides a much better platform for the phono stylus, suspension and cartridge body to work against. I suspect that something similar is happening with the braced strut towers and the struts/springs using the GrimmSpeed or similar device. They work more efficiently because of the improved rigidity of the strut towers. The stiffness of the strut tower (braced by the two stock ones plus the GrimmSpeed) has to be enhanced to some degree because the three braces now form a triangle. That is the strongest, most rigid geometric shape.

The proof is in the pudding; I will get back with a report after I have a chance to actually drive with the darn thing in place. The rain has stopped so maybe later today.


Added: Another reason for trying to raise resonant frequencies is that higher frequencies decay more rapidly than low, which tend to carry further and through all kinds of materials. Think of the situation where your neighbor in an apartment building is playing music loudly, but all you hear is the bass coming through the wall. Everything else is muffled.

As one who also has an acoustic electronic audiophile mind , I find your analagous description an excellent mental visualization of a vibration damper and how it affects the car.

Time to get my spectrum analyzer out and start testing strut bars to see which dampens the strongest frequencies , by how much, which frequencies need to be dampened, by how much, publish comparison graphs - etc. etc. etc.



(and oh yeah, I forgot - endless pages of forum debate until the mathematicaly proven bar gets the opinion rating approval)



They all do work, the lightest stiffest one is best. A definite must have for tracking.



CERBERUS

[GrimmSpeed]

Some good suggestions. We have a big long thread about the development of this piece that you probably don't want to comb through. There are also SEVERAL "What do you think about your strut bar" threads on here with rave reviews. We have video testing of strut tower deflection going around medium speed cloverleafs with and without the bar. Lots of info out there, and lots of independent tests by people who own it.

I was lead engineer on this project and THE BIGGEST strut bar skeptic in the world. We weren't going to make it if it didnt do anything, and I certainly wasn't going to be the one to defend it if I didnt feel like it was worthwhile. After we did the deflection testing we knew we were on to something, but we had been driving the car so much that we'd lost the feeling. Then one day one of our sales guys took the car out to go pick up something, lunch or whatever I don't remember. But he comes back in and asked me if we had put the strut tower bar that we were talking about on the car, which we had. He had no clue it was on there, and yet saw a difference so noticeable that he came to us about it, and this was only low speed driving on terrible pot hole ridden Minnesota roads.

So this gave us an idea, and we started to do blind testing. Randomly add or remove, or leave the strut bar, have the same person drive it and guess if it was on or off several times in a row. Had an engineer do it, had the owner do it, had sales guys do it, and almost every single time they were right.

There's been reports of other people doing this, not only on this forum, but on others. Here's one: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=1150

Now we didn't tell the guy to do this, he just did it and was so excited he wanted to post about it.

Then one day when we posted the bar on facebook we had a skeptic arguing exactly what we're seeing here: strut bars are only for bling, they don't do anything, I autoX and I can tell the difference, etc.

So we sent him one: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46737

So the user impressions are there. Is it going to knock .3 seconds off your lap times? I don't know, it depends on how good of a driver you are. Will it help with consistency and more importantly confidence? It certainly does. But if there is one thing to take away from this is that I was the biggest strut bar skeptic, right there with so many of you, and I really wanted to make something that you could bolt on and actually feel. There are hundreds of people saying that we did just that, and unfortunately the only way to know isn't by sitting here and bench racing about it, but by actually feeling it.

Plus it looks pretty neat

Chase
Engineering

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

Wow! Such passion!

I said it was my .02, I said it could be argued both ways. I never said it didn't add rigidity. I said there was no quantifiable performance gain from adding a strut tower brace.

I also said if it tickles your prostate to have one, more power to you.

So go flex your internet tough guy stuff on another thread

No you accused people of succumbing to placebo and supported the idea that they did nothing.


Take your shtick to another thread since YOU are the one hijacking this one. Nobody asked you for your opinion of whether FSTBs work or not. Read the OP.

[tahdizzle]

Originally Posted by abraxis

No you accused people of succumbing to placebo and supported the idea that they did nothing.


Take your shtick to another thread since YOU are the one hijacking this one. Nobody asked you for your opinion of whether FSTBs work or not. Read the OP.

You are absolutely right on a couple items. I did say that you guys are going through a placebo. And I did support my opinion.

However, I am very much on topic and have been until this post when you took your post off topic and started attacking me.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

You are absolutely right on a couple items. I did say that you guys are going through a placebo. And I did support my opinion.

However, I am very much on topic and have been until this post when you took your post off topic and started attacking me.

No, the OP asked which FSTB to pick. Perrin or Grimspeed. They did not ask if FSTBs do anything or are they placebo? I'm attacking your offtopic threadjack and trolling of 'placebo' victims. If you don't like having bad arguments attacked, stop making them.

[babydriver]

Originally Posted by abraxis

The OP asked which FSTB to pick. Perrin or Grimspeed.

That is correct. (I'm the OP.)

Now that the rain has finally stopped and the roads have dried out, I can make some preliminary comments on the GrimmSpeed bar. I took the FR-S down a very windy road west of Austin called "Old Spicewood Springs" which has quite a few tight curves, quick dips and equally quick rises. The quality of the pavement is not the best, but not horrible. A good test road, I think. I'm familiar with it too, having driven it a number of times.

My initial impression was that the front suspension and steering were more surefooted and under control. It was a noticeable, if not large difference. It simply felt like the car was better about going where I "pointed" it; no more, no less. The front tires seemed to me to be in better contact with the pavement especially when it was uneven than without the bar. I did NOT notice any difference concerning the rear of the car, which was still a bit tail-happy. Nor did I notice any reduction in sway when I ran it at a higher speed through a wide, long S curve on a limited access road nearby. (Very good pavement, no bumps.) Even there, though, the steering seemed more controlled.

Of course the car is quite surefooted on its own already. Tomorrow, I intend to take the car out again, run a "lap" on that road, then remove the bar and repeat the run. If there is any noticeable difference, it should show up when the bar is removed. It will then go back on again, etc., until I'm satisfied that I can discern and qualify any (or no) differences with and without the bar. After I'm done, I'll report back on the experience.

This will have to be an entirely subjective opinion, since I have no way to conduct time trial(s) on a dedicated track.


P.S. NVH is definitely decreased with the bar. I noticed that almost immediately.

[babydriver]

Final report on GrimmSpeed bar:

I took the car out this morning on Hairy Man Road. This is a 2 mile paved road with many tight turns and some real bumps due to a poor paving job. (It is asphalt, though.) At one end is a church parking lot that is paved with blacktop. I used the parking lot to remove the bar and replace it after a test run in both directions on Hairy Man. I also pulled several tight figure eights at about 20 mph in the lot to check for sway.

Comparing the handling with and without the bar in place, the biggest difference was the ability of the bar to keep the tires in better contact with the pavement on bumps. The ride also was a good deal less jarring over the uneven parts of the pavement. I described this before as a "surefooted" quality to the front end. Bump steer also was reduced noticeably, although again, not all that bad to start with (no bar). NVH was definitely reduced by a large margin.

Without the bar and on the road itself, there was more jostling on bumps, a less controlled feeling from the front tires and suspension and more sway. I did not notice that last characteristic last evening on the high speed pass on a long, well-paved curve in a divided highway, but it was obvious when switching from "no bar" back to "with bar" that sway was reduced noticeably. I am certain that a good sway bar would do even more, but at about 3-4 times the cost. I strongly suspect, though, that no gains would be made in the other areas outlined above with a sway bar, since these appear to be due to the increased stiffness of the strut towers with the GrimmSpeed bar.

Bottom line: This product works, it improves the ride and stability of the car's handling and it seems to reduce sway to a certain degree, but not as much as a good sway bar would. For the improvement in front end handling and reduction in NVH and for the modest cost, I definitely recommend this accessory.

[Chad86]

Trying to decide between the Hotchkis and Grimmspeed
Wouldn't the Hotchkis work better as it is one piece? Not sure if you basically get the same result. Input please.



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