Air Suspension Discussion Thread - Let's Get Nerdy

[Andrew@ORT]

Technically speaking, yes hah.

Kits start around 25-2700. There are definitely deals to be had on full kits. Comparatively, they're in the ballpark of some KW coilovers. Hope that helps!

sent via telepathy

[Jyn]

What sort of longevity results are being seen for the AirLift kits? Things like valve life, air line leaks, etc. after 1 year, 2 years, and in what driving/environment conditions? From air systems in the past, it was basically guaranteed that after 2+ years, you're going to have a leak somewhere and need to monitor for that. Not saying that's bad or good, but just an observation I've seen with air systems of the past.

[Chaz@ORT]

Originally Posted by Jyn

What sort of longevity results are being seen for the AirLift kits? Things like valve life, air line leaks, etc. after 1 year, 2 years, and in what driving/environment conditions? From air systems in the past, it was basically guaranteed that after 2+ years, you're going to have a leak somewhere and need to monitor for that. Not saying that's bad or good, but just an observation I've seen with air systems of the past.

As pulled from Airlift's website:
"When properly installed, air suspension can provide many years of trouble free service. Today’s technology and materials have allowed even OEM manufactures to offer their cars with air suspension options, while the trucking industry rides millions of miles every year almost exclusively on air. We use similar products and technology to build our suspension kits. In addition, Air Lift torture tests all of its major components in-house on industry exclusive test equipment to ensure every aspect of reliability. And before a new kit hits the streets, we take it to the track and show it no mercy, allowing us to pinpoint any weaknesses. This comprehensive approach along with our unlimited 1 year warranty means you are getting the best made air suspension kits in the industry!"

Valve life is all dependent on which management you go with, as there is a plethora of options out on the market now, both new and used. Overall We've had VERY little warranty issues regarding valves across the board of all managements we carry.

All air-line we supply is either 1/4, 3/8 or 1/2inch DOT air line. When it comes to leaks, they wont happen within the line, they'll happen at the fittings where sealants can slowly break down from drastic temperature changes (ex. winter to summer to winter). As long as you safely run all your airlines where they won't come in contact with moving parts, or dragging on the ground, you wont have to worry about them bursting, or leaking.

In terms of fittings, If you're meticulous, and careful you can get leak free seals that last for years. In a lot of cases sometimes just a 1/8 of a turn on the fitting will cure that leak. Leaks are just something you have to learn to live with, because inevitably you're going to have one at some point. It may take a month, or a couple years. it's just the nature of the beast, but it's nothing that isn't easily fixed.

We have customers in every climate, including mexico, alaska, and russia. places that see the extremes of the sales of weather. If you're running air in a particularly hot/humid environment, the only maintenance you need to maintain is emptying out your water trap to prevent water from reaching the manifold.

If you're in a colder climate, we recommend pouring 1 cap full of anti-freeze into your air tank, and that will prevent any valves from freezing, and from any moisture freezing in the airline causing a blockage.


Here's a video that takes a look behind the scene's into AirLifts testing and R&D:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqUnQFukdPs"]Click Here[/ame]

[Andrew@ORT]

Piggybacking on what Chaz has discussed in the above post, we have six years experience with air suspension. Within those six years, we've developed a very good understanding of the systems and we've also put together packages which we feel are the most reliable.

In the most concise form, the quality of the products will only carry you so far. However, this seems to be true across the board when it comes to aftermarket products. Simply put, you're going to get out of your system what you put into it, it's the old accounting addage "garbage in garbage out".

All of the systems we sell have excellent warranty programs and have excellent track records. We wouldn't sell anything that would leave our customers stranded. However, as pointed out above, there will be inevitable issues with the system. For this, we stock repair or replacement parts and we also sell roadside emergency kits. We've seen systems we've sold with over 100k on them. Just remember, you get what you pay for!

[dolo]

Does anyone have any experience or opinions of how these systems handle the awesome winter road salt conditions? These systems seem very appealing but I would hate to install something like this and have it develop rust in a year or two.

[Chaz@ORT]

Originally Posted by dolo

Does anyone have any experience or opinions of how these systems handle the awesome winter road salt conditions? These systems seem very appealing but I would hate to install something like this and have it develop rust in a year or two.

Dolo, I can speak from personal experience, as can Andrew and our friend xxscarxx.

Personally I've ran my air suspension on my Volkswagen GTI through 2 New York winters, this last winter being a particularly snowy one. I daily drive my GTI every single day, accumulating about 1200 miles a month.

All air-lift struts feature powdercoated bodies, including the threads on the performance series for the frs/brz, with anodized mounting plates for the bags. In the last 2 winters my struts have acquired zero rust. at the end of each winter I've taken a wet rag and wiped down the struts, plates and bags to inspect them and clean the salt off. zero issues.

the bags show no signs of wear what so ever, (as long as you're running proper wheel fitment ;] )

all in all, you don't have to worry about these struts rusting out, nor do you have to worry about adverse effects to the bags because of the salt.

[Shankenstein]

Originally Posted by Chaz@ORT

I appreciate the information and the video. Just to help separate marketing from reality... here's a validation engineer's side of the story.

• The shock dyno is being driven pneumatically. Not the typical mechanical setup. For durability/reliability testing this is fine, as it is for doing comparisons with golden samples. They claim to be tuning systems and characterizing system dynamics. Repeatable results (maybe), accurate results (probably not). Controls should be an order of magnitude faster than the system.

• Although the equipment is a bit old, Tenney makes solid equipment. The lack of humidity control only serves to make the test more severe, and replicate the Michigan outdoors (where they're based). The low temperature testing seems OK to me.
  
  GM, Mazda, & Nissan = -40 C
  Air Lift = -35 C
  
  High temperature testing could be a bit better though.
  GM = +95 C
  Mazda = +85 C
  Nissan = +100 C
  Air Lift = +65 C

• If they want to run more testing, I'd recommend corrosion, humidity, water spray, mechanical shock, drop, dimensional, pressure and flow testing, and some operating tests.

• Dat Haas CNC...
  

[semowashere]

Originally Posted by dolo

Does anyone have any experience or opinions of how these systems handle the awesome winter road salt conditions? These systems seem very appealing but I would hate to install something like this and have it develop rust in a year or two.

I made it through this past Chicago winter on my airlift kit. I basically used two different ride heights, one for clear clean roads and another (a higher setting) for snowy roads. I can't recommend air suspension enough. The only maintainance needed is a monthly purging of the water from the tank and that takes about two minutes.

[Roxy86]

I'm familiar with air bag systems used to compensate for additional payload...
I've owned SUV's with them equipped, and honestly one of the best inventions yet!

I'm not familiar with aftermarket kits....so, excuse the beginner questions.

I've always understood for performance that valving is key to a good set of coilovers / shocks. If you have infinite range of spring rates - how can the valving accommodate the difference or "infinite" range in spring rate?
Who makes the dampers for Air-Lift?

[Chaz@ORT]

Originally Posted by Roxy86

I've always understood for performance that valving is key to a good set of coilovers / shocks. If you have infinite range of spring rates - how can the valving accommodate the difference or "infinite" range in spring rate?
Who makes the dampers for Air-Lift?

I took your question and e-mailed AirLift's Leed tech, Brian Vinson. Here's what he had to say.

"The range of damping in the adjustment range covers the change in spring rates created by the air springs. This is no different than a race damper, for example that is valves to accommodate a range of spring rates. And don't forget we are only really concerned with rates at a reasonable ride height. All up or all down are not driving situations that matter.

Our dampers are manufactured by a well known coil over company to our specifications. This "private label" arrangement allows us to tailor the damping, stroke and even geometry to properly work with our air spring technology. No one else has these same parts available in the same configuration. Every damper is dyno tested after assembly and matched to another one within 5% of the same force ensuring proper performance."

To answer your second question, BC Racing makes the dampers. (Which was mentioned in the first post ;] )

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Chaz@ORT

Our dampers are manufactured by a well known coil over company to our specifications. This "private label" arrangement allows us to tailor the damping, stroke and even geometry to properly work with our air spring technology.

so the million dollar question (at least for me)


what are your dampening curves, compression and rebound?




because you can have something work.. ie, there is no doubt that a car can ride on airbags and feel fine... but can it perform like a Penske tuned to the application?

furthermore, do you think your suspension could provide the dampening levels that would support a WRC-level car?


basically, what is your "damper tuning philosophy"

[xxscaxx]

Originally Posted by dolo

Does anyone have any experience or opinions of how these systems handle the awesome winter road salt conditions? These systems seem very appealing but I would hate to install something like this and have it develop rust in a year or two.

Went through last winter fine...and it was probably the worst winter NY has seen in quite some time.

When I swapped my wheels out to put my CCWs back on, they still looked brand new.

Like anything else, you have to keep maintenance on things to make sure they are going to be in optimum condition. I didn't go out of my way to clean them during winter but after winter I made sure to clean them off and get salt/etc off of them, which surprisingly wasn't much.


Also to just touch upon the comments above about longevity and leaks, honestly 95% of the time if you have a leak its from install error, not a parts error. If you keep the lines routed in a safe place away from moving parts/sharp edges/etc, you are not going to rupture a line. Same thing with the fittings for leaks. Its easy to miss a leak sometimes but most fixes take 5 minutes to do. As long as you are using teflon/loctite 565 on things you aren't going to have an issue.

I've done quite a few installs already, and my suggestion to anyone tackling it is to make sure you give yourself adequate time to finish, and have a game plan before hand. Honestly installing the struts/lines isn't that time consuming, its the trunk setup/management depending on what you are looking to accomplish with it.

The only time i've seen a bag rupture is from rubbing of some sort, whether it be from a wheel, or not enough clearance in the strut tower, but thats usually on a car that doesn't have a custom application like we have so that isn't something that anyone has to be concerned about.

[Chaz@ORT]

Okay 7thGear,

I sent your questions to Lead Tech at Airlift, Brian Vinsion. Here's what he had to say.

Q: "what are your dampening curves, compression and rebound?"
A: That is proprietary information. Just about every manufacturer keeps that to themselves for competitive purposes. Needless to say, eventually someone will dyno the parts themselves and report the data. And no matter what gets posted, somebody has something negative to say. It is safe to say that there is no “perfect” F-V curve for every car, spring rate, driver or track condition. Best way to find out is to go for a ride in a car with one of our systems to really see what its all about.

Q: "because you can have something work.. ie, there is no doubt that a car can ride on airbags and feel fine... but can it perform like a Penske tuned to the application?"
A: Penskes are custom built for Ft86 and cost over $9k! Hardly a reasonable comparison.. If you buy those, you are intending your car to be a full on race car. Street cars rarely run on Penskes. Race cars…all the time but their intended use is one thing: fast lap time. Our system does a lot more than that and is intended for those people who want performance but have to live with their cars on the street everyday.. Will it beat them on the track? Doubtful but I’ll take air when trying to get into my steep driveway or going over a speedbump!

Q: "furthermore, do you think your suspension could provide the dampening levels that would support a WRC-level car?"
A: WRC dampers have larger components like rod and piston size and many have position sensitive damping. Again, meant for one thing: fast stage times and incredible durability. Ours is much more intended for street use than rally suspension. That said, we have had people run amateur rally cross (including ourselves) without issue. Show me somebody with WRC dampers on their street car!

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by Chaz@ORT

Okay 7thGear,

I sent your questions to Lead Tech at Airlift, Brian Vinsion. Here's what he had to say.

Q: "what are your dampening curves, compression and rebound?"
A: That is proprietary information. Just about every manufacturer keeps that to themselves for competitive purposes. Needless to say, eventually someone will dyno the parts themselves and report the data. And no matter what gets posted, somebody has something negative to say. It is safe to say that there is no “perfect” F-V curve for every car, spring rate, driver or track condition. Best way to find out is to go for a ride in a car with one of our systems to really see what its all about.
Eh, most suspension that I have seen that were released for this platform on this forum almost always got asked to see a dyno of them, thus one was provided by the manufacturer. But yes, words and dyno charts only give so much before the imagination has to make up for the loss of real world experience. There is nothing left to the imagination when riding in a car with the particular setup in question
Q: "because you can have something work.. ie, there is no doubt that a car can ride on airbags and feel fine... but can it perform like a Penske tuned to the application?"
A: Penskes are custom built for Ft86 and cost over $9k! Hardly a reasonable comparison.. If you buy those, you are intending your car to be a full on race car. Street cars rarely run on Penskes. Not true, while they are simply incredibly expensive, that's the only reason why some people won't run them, the more info on Penske thread kinda covers this Race cars…all the time but their intended use is one thing: fast lap time. Our system does a lot more than that and is intended for those people who want performance but have to live with their cars on the street everyday.. Will it beat them on the track? Doubtful but I’ll take air when trying to get into my steep driveway or going over a speedbump!

Q: "furthermore, do you think your suspension could provide the dampening levels that would support a WRC-level car?"
A: WRC dampers have larger components like rod and piston size and many have position sensitive damping. Again, meant for one thing: fast stage times and incredible durability. Ours is much more intended for street use than rally suspension. That said, we have had people run amateur rally cross (including ourselves) without issue. Show me somebody with WRC dampers on their street car! Again this would be a horrible idea, the stroke on WRC struts are rediculous. So much so that it's arguable it would stick out of the hood of the 86 if it were to be installed. I think 7thGear was trying to get at was how far is the suspension travel compared to typical coilover suspension.

My $.02 cents

Not knocking on air suspension at all, I have heard it is the most comfortable option for suspension out there. And to a varying degree of adjustability, the system can be set to handle corners like a sporty suspension with a great ride.