Part of the problem explained.

[RFB]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

I believe there is.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

I think its accessed through User CP



CERBERUS

[jvincent]

Originally Posted by RFB

And as for your perceived nuisance level - your technical expertise and information offered contributes to our community, whether you are accurate or not, as it leads to dialogue, differing opinions and enlightenment.
Eventually someone with more technical expertise than you will chime in with more debate, info and enlightenment.

Nice theory, if in fact Suberman was actually open to listening to other or even soliciting the opinions of others.

For the most part, all of his posts have been pronouncements on the defects inherent in the design of the car. These are backed up by oblique references in online articles or seemingly random quotes from driving texts. When these are challenged with opinions from equally valid sources they are dismissed out of hand.

Suberman is one of those guys who knows everything. We all know somebody like him. He's never wrong.

He clearly thinks his car oversteers too easily. Fine, that's his opinion. If he had taken the approach of asking the community for suggestions about how to reduce the oversteer tendency and actually LISTENING to the input, nobody would have an issue.

But no, his approach has been antagonistic from the get go. This thread is a perfect example. He finds a link discussing the suspension of 2008 WRXs and somehow this is magically the reason for what he is seeing with this car.

The fact that Toyota/Subaru designed a car that is easy to drift and there are people who enjoy this are somehow below him and his driving skill and as such those people need to belittled.

So, unless he changes his approach on this forum, he's never going to get any real help because all he has done is antagonize a lot of people who may have the ability to help him out.

[Burrcold]

Suberman, I'm curious. Did you drive the BRZ before purchasing it? If so, what were your initial thoughts? Be honest.


I just find it strange that you have so many issues with the winter handling, general suspension, chassis, etc., that you didn't pick up on its inadequacies during your due diligence. You are after all, a lawyer. I would have thought that some fact pounding would have been first and foremost before laying down your hard earned cash.


Secondly, what DO you like about the car? Again, be honest. Anything...interior...styling...whatever. I'm interested in hearing a full review of the car from you (not being sarcastic).


You're obviously an older gentleman, who's had his go round with cars in the past. What was it that lured you to this one, and what's keeping you in it (despite your pretty strong objections to the engineers choices in designing it)?


I'm up for a little more grown up discussion, if you are.

[RFB]

Originally Posted by jvincent

Nice theory, if in fact Suberman was actually open to listening to other or even soliciting the opinions of others.

For the most part, all of his posts have been pronouncements on the defects inherent in the design of the car. These are backed up by oblique references in online articles or seemingly random quotes from driving texts. When these are challenged with opinions from equally valid sources they are dismissed out of hand.

Suberman is one of those guys who knows everything. We all know somebody like him. He's never wrong.

He clearly thinks his car oversteers too easily. Fine, that's his opinion. If he had taken the approach of asking the community for suggestions about how to reduce the oversteer tendency and actually LISTENING to the input, nobody would have an issue.

But no, his approach has been antagonistic from the get go. This thread is a perfect example. He finds a link discussing the suspension of 2008 WRXs and somehow this is magically the reason for what he is seeing with this car.

The fact that Toyota/Subaru designed a car that is easy to drift and there are people who enjoy this are somehow below him and his driving skill and as such those people need to belittled.

So, unless he changes his approach on this forum, he's never going to get any real help because all he has done is antagonize a lot of people who may have the ability to help him out.

NOBODY likes a "know it all".

Fortunately there's lots of them - It is the intraweb after all - in conflict there is entertainment !

Better than dry boring nomenclature LOL !





CEREBRUS

[wbradley]

I say sell the car and get something that you are less unhappy with. I say "less unhappy" since you sound like you could never be satisfied. Did you not read enough about the car pre-purchase to understand that it was deliberately designed with varied degrees of tail happiness?

If you really want to improve your car, open up your wallet and visit a local shop that knows how to make it handle the way you want it to.

Or do what I did, accept the fact that there is a compromise to owning a car like this and buy a Subaru or an Audi for the winter.

Oh, and please leave this dead horse as it lay.

[DR 86]

I question the successfulness of any lawyer who relies on driving a BRZ in the winter in Calgary. This is probably related to his inherent inadequacy with the concept of a logical argument.

[RFB]

Originally Posted by wbradley

I say sell the car and get something that you are less unhappy with. I say "less unhappy" since you sound like you could never be satisfied. Did you not read enough about the car pre-purchase to understand that it was deliberately designed with varied degrees of tail happiness?

If you really want to improve your car, open up your wallet and visit a local shop that knows how to make it handle the way you want it to.

Or do what I did, accept the fact that there is a compromise to owning a car like this and buy a Subaru or an Audi for the winter.

Oh, and please leave this dead horse as it lay.

What's it matter anyway ?

I don't give a sh!t what an intraweb stranger does with his life.

I don't take the internet and forums seriously because of the anonymity.
The web for me is for knowledge, communication and entertainment.

I would take it seriously if I had a personal relationship with an internet irritator though - LOL !






CERBERUS

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Suberman, I'm curious. Did you drive the BRZ before purchasing it? If so, what were your initial thoughts? Be honest.


I just find it strange that you have so many issues with the winter handling, general suspension, chassis, etc., that you didn't pick up on its inadequacies during your due diligence. You are after all, a lawyer. I would have thought that some fact pounding would have been first and foremost before laying down your hard earned cash.


Secondly, what DO you like about the car? Again, be honest. Anything...interior...styling...whatever. I'm interested in hearing a full review of the car from you (not being sarcastic).


You're obviously an older gentleman, who's had his go round with cars in the past. What was it that lured you to this one, and what's keeping you in it (despite your pretty strong objections to the engineers choices in designing it)?


I'm up for a little more grown up discussion, if you are.

Actually I drove a hailed out FRS with 2,400 km on the odo. I drove it reasonably hard. TC was active on several corners. I redlined the engine several times as it was fully run in. The salesman was very enthusiastic and encouraged me to flog it, so I obliged.

Within 50 ft, and no exaggeration, 50 ft I decided I had to have the Subaru BRZ and not a Cayman. Had the BRZ not been available I'd have settled for an FRS. The car is that good.

I was lined up for a PDK Cayman but the FRS made that choice boneheaded. I bought the manual BRZ because the automatic in the BRZ was geared oddly compared to the manual and although I didn't drive an auto I felt it might be noticably slower. Besides, I only bought my very first automatic equipped car in 2008, and then only after a two hour test drive convinced me that ZF has indeed cracked the code and torque converter automatics are better than any manual box now made. I bought the manual shift BRZ mainly because it made no sense to do so from a technical driving perspective. This is very likely my last manual shift car and I wish to retain the driving skills I have learned.

I waited for my Subie dealer, who also sells Jaguar, to have a few in stock so I had some bargaining power. Out here these cars were basically selling off the truck.

I drove the car every weekend to break it in.

I find no faults at all with this car except its propensity to slide too easily. This makes the car slower than it needs to be and slower than it could be. For serious drivers who know how suspension is supposed to work this is very disappointing. It also means adding a supercharger will make this car a bit of a handful which may mean Toyota won't release a supercharger kit.

I have no interest in sliding around and going more slowly than I need to. I prefer a car that handles "properly" accepting the fact that this car was intentionally designed to slide too easily. The fact that this also seems to make the car ineffective as a winter driver , however much "fun" it might be to slide around so easily, just intensifies the disappointment.

I was aware that this car was designed to do this by Toyota and that the BRZ was tuned to deliver a more grown up experience. I didn't expect the BRZ to be much different from the FRS, and it isn't, but it is the version for the more serious driver.

The irony is my disappointment in this aspect of this car, the only disappointment, actually arises because this car could be so good if it didn't do this.

I accept there are buyers who like it this way, or at least think they do. Indeed, Toyota was banking on that and correctly so as it turned out. I'll go so far as to say Toyota may not have built this car without that market to sell to.

That doesn't make it correctly suspended.

I'm highly amused that some get their knickers in a twist because I had the unmitigated gall to state that I have a very high IQ. That was in specific reply to a bonehead who stated I was brainless or some such infantile insult. It happens to be true but that doesn't make me an expert. It does give me an edge in research in what I write about and in writing about it.

I'm even more amused at people who keep posting vitriol in some sort of vain attempt to belittle me or my ideas. I think I've posted enough personal information to inform anyone but a congenital idiot that I'm immune to any such attempts. You all now know I'm a barrister. Surely you can understand that a person who can withstand being grilled by the Court of Appeal isn't going to have his or her ego dented by a bunch of manic amateur critics many of whom seem to have difficulty reading let alone formulating and expressing thoughts coherently.

I'm also a pretty good driver with lots of high speed experience (after all I get free legal advice whenever I get a ticket so I don't pay many of them) but make no claim to approach the skill levels of someone like Mr Frere. What's relevant is I've driven enough machinery to know what I like and prefer and to inform others about defects in vehicle design. I'm not an engineer but I don't need to be to usefully discuss these matters on a forum like this.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by Suberman

I like this car just fine.

I'd like it better if it handled better. As it is you have to be 16 at heart to enjoy this car for long. If you know what you're doing it gets a tad tiresome to drive every day. It could be much better.

Not all cars can be improved from the factory.

An indicator of which ones are poorly designed in the first place and could have been much better can be gauged from the availability of aftermarket "improvements".

Think about it, you'll understand eventually.

How do you define better? Are you trying to set hot laps? Do you go to the track every weekend? Honestly unless you do, the car in stock form is just fine.

[ayau]

It's weird that you think the car oversteers too much when there are people (@csg mike) who actually track these cars and think that a stock FRS actually undetsteers during certain situations.

[headlikeahole]

Originally Posted by ayau

How do you define better? Are you trying to set hot laps? Do you go to the track every weekend? Honestly unless you do, the car in stock form is just fine.

This is the main point that suberman has never understood. His measure of great handling is speed and form. That's not what the car is about.

If you wants a cheap little car that will be fast on a track or auto x get a Fiesta ST. That doesn't mean the Fiesta has better handling, it just means the Fiesta has better handling for that purpose.

It's also stupid to complain so much about the handling of the car when 500 bucks worth of suspension components would allow you to make it handle how ever you like.

[Taro]

This is still going on? Seriously?

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by headlikeahole

This is the main point that suberman has never understood. His measure of great handling is speed and form. That's not what the car is about.
It's also stupid to complain so much about the handling of the car when 500 bucks worth of suspension components would allow you to make it handle how ever you like.

I believe it has been declared time and again that one of the main objectives the engineers managed to accomplish with this platform was to make it fun to drive WITHOUT having to travel at excessive (ie: dangerous, wreckless) speeds.

If you want to drive on a track it is fairly inexpensive to change control arms, bushings, springs, dampers, geometry, etc.

Why anyone would expect a lightweight, low slung rear wheel drive car to be "good" in the snow is beyond me. Suberman must be a genius, otherwise how could he be so stupid when it comes to common sense? Well at least he is good at inciting arguments. He isn't good at understanding physics, however.

I don't mind a heated discussion but the fact is that Suberman is trolling.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by ayau

How do you define better? Are you trying to set hot laps? Do you go to the track every weekend? Honestly unless you do, the car in stock form is just fine.

Better road car. The car in stock form is anything but "just fine"". But if you like it ok.

However, the car could be much better on the track also.