why is Subaru spokesperson Michael McHale concern

[4agze]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

^ why would one buy the FT86?
- Price
- Weight

Also, the Subaru/STi no longer compete in the FIA WRC. Furthermore, FIA WRC regulation are changed from this year on too.

Speaking of rally, you think since this is (assuming its a 2.0liter) a subaru attempt to go S2000 rally?

[Franisco]

Originally Posted by NESW20

the subaru version would need to have significant structural difference to be AWD. honestly, i really hope it doesn't have it. audi is the whole reason why subaru changed to AWD, btw. they weren't always 100% AWD.

-Mike

That's another thing, it wasn't like Subaru invented AWD. The fanbois are so annoying.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by 4agze

Speaking of rally, you think since this is (assuming its a 2.0liter) a subaru attempt to go S2000 rally?

S2000 regulations do not like Subie's transverse AWD setup.

[scape]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

-

Translation "we can't make a good looking design and Toyota will outsell us 5-1, so we are going to bitch and moan"

LOL

[White Comet]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

So you're stating that Subie STI ver possibly NA 2.5L (est: 200~250hp) FR layout? Hell, why do I want to buy FT-86c if Subie gonna have almost same spec w more hp.

You? I don't know. But for the public at large, the answer is the same as to why Ford sells both a V6 and V8 Mustang, why the 3-series comes in a number of different engine trims, why there's a WRX and an STI, and why there's a Ralliart and an Evo. Just because this one is across two different brands doesn't make a difference.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

You're right, there's no rule that says the STI has to be boosted AWD, only 17 yrs of history proven fact that all the STI models were boosted AWD. After all, STI was made for FIA WRC that's why only one with that badge.

I didn't know Forester STIs competed in WRC.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

If Toyo come out w NA 2L, Subie will just bring NA 2/2.5L as base model Boosted will be WRX/GT & STI. Simple as that.

Like I said before, it might go this way, it might not. But you don't know, and there's no hard facts for you to base this on, other than using the Impreza/WRX/STI template, which is not enough to go on here.

[4agze]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

S2000 regulations do not like Subie's transverse AWD setup.

no im talking about if this will be RWD only NOT AWD

[Matador]

Originally Posted by 4agze

no im talking about if this will be RWD only NOT AWD

Would not be competitive against AWD cars.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by White Comet

You? I don't know. But for the public at large, the answer is the same as to why Ford sells both a V6 and V8 Mustang, why the 3-series comes in a number of different engine trims, why there's a WRX and an STI, and why there's a Ralliart and an Evo. Just because this one is across two different brands doesn't make a difference.

Huh? You're not making sense or am I stupid and not getting it. V6 and V8 mustang? 3-series? WRX and STI? Ralliart and Evo? Public at large?

What Public? I'm not sure about your area, but sure in hell around my area don't give a damn bout Ford make or do. Not sure bout v6 & v8 stang, cuz I don't care bout Ford. 3-series? BMW, Mazda? Freak, I don't know what Germans think. I have hard time remembering half of their series and why they put some parts to the engine. Why do I want to remember rest of the number series? Mazda is somewhat owned by Ford, so it's out of my sight. WRX and STI? STI is division of Subaru company to make better improved WRX for FIA WRC (back in 90's anyways). Same as Ralliart for Mitsubishi. So in beginning they started STI/Ralliart to make their car to be fastest in rally.

Originally Posted by White Comet

I didn't know Forester STIs competed in WRC.

I didn't know there was Subaru Forester STI. OH~ you mean Subaru Forester XT. NOT STI. Yes, they do use several STI parts, but no, they're not named Forester STI. IIRC there was Forester XTI concept was unveiled in '08 & '09 auto show, but I haven't heard that it was released.

As for competing in WRC, here you go.

Barattero Motorsport and YPF Elaion have teamed up to compete in the 2010 Dakar Rally.


Subaru France:


Categoria CAM:

Originally Posted by White Comet

Like I said before, it might go this way, it might not. But you don't know, and there's no hard facts for you to base this on, other than using the Impreza/WRX/STI template, which is not enough to go on here.

17 yrs of facts aren't enough to back up my guess then IDK what is. I love to hear your thoughts on it. Which side you gonna take, boost or no boost on STI and don't give me that "there isn't enough hard facts to state anything." well duh, that's why we're just guessing/wishing/estimating/hypothesizing. I'm not asking you to show me a proof. Just asking simple which side you're guessing on and not mediator answer.

I'll keep wishing/praying for NA FR FT-86c. For STI, keep their tradition of boosted AWD.

[White Comet]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Huh? You're not making sense or am I stupid and not getting it.

/\ /\ /\
This. I'm happy to explain something if it's not clear to you, but spare me the attitude (and you have demonstrated enough mastery of English not to use that as an excuse, either).

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

V6 and V8 mustang? 3-series? WRX and STI? Ralliart and Evo? Public at large? What Public? I'm not sure about your area, but sure in hell around my area don't give a damn bout Ford make or do. Not sure bout v6 & v8 stang, cuz I don't care bout Ford. 3-series? BMW, Mazda? Freak, I don't know what Germans think. I have hard time remembering half of their series and why they put some parts to the engine. Why do I want to remember rest of the number series? Mazda is somewhat owned by Ford, so it's out of my sight. WRX and STI? STI is division of Subaru company to make better improved WRX for FIA WRC (back in 90's anyways). Same as Ralliart for Mitsubishi. So in beginning they started STI/Ralliart to make their car to be fastest in rally.

You said you wouldn't buy the Subie if all that differentiated it from the Toyo version was a bump in hp, but no drivetrain differences. I pointed out, with examples, that auto-makers have been doing this for decades, and it clearly has not impacted sales negatively. I.e., the BMW 3-series, the Mustang V6 and GT V8, the WRX to the STI, and the Ralliart to the Evo (yes, the Mitsu and Subie examples have some drivetrain changes between the models, but the layouts are still the same). The only exception in this scenario is that the two different trims would be sold across two different brands, but GM has done this for decades as well, and it still works as long as the two cars are marketed differently enough.

Point.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

I didn't know there was Subaru Forester STI. OH~ you mean Subaru Forester XT. NOT STI. Yes, they do use several STI parts, but no, they're not named Forester STI. IIRC there was Forester XTI concept was unveiled in '08 & '09 auto show, but I haven't heard that it was released.

Wrong. There was an STI. JDM market only, but it exist(ed). Why does it matter? Because it goes against your statement that STIs were made only for WRC. The Forester STI was not rallied by Subaru in WRC. Your photos of the others are irrelevant because they are privateers, or Subaru France, and Subie of Japan most certainly did not create the Forester STI for sale in Japan only just so Subaru of France could race it.

Point.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

17 yrs of facts aren't enough to back up my guess then IDK what is. I love to hear your thoughts on it. Which side you gonna take, boost or no boost on STI and don't give me that "there isn't enough hard facts to state anything." well duh, that's why we're just guessing/wishing/estimating/hypothesizing. I'm not asking you to show me a proof. Just asking simple which side you're guessing on and not mediator answer.

I'll keep wishing/praying for NA FR FT-86c. For STI, keep their tradition of boosted AWD.

You keep citing the Impreza/WRX/STI as proof of "tradition", but considering the model below the STI is also boosted and AWD, so what? That just goes to show that the STI is largely differentiated from the lower model primarly by a boost in power (yes, I know of the myriad of other differences, but the drivetrain is ultimately still the same).

I personally don't care what Subaru does to the FT, be it AWD boosted or RWD and powered by two huffing baboons. Unless it's somehow orders of magnitude better in every way compared to the Toyota, that's the one I have interest in.

We're all here to debate/discuss this that's captured our imaginations. Arguments are going to be the norm here. No need for peoples' backs to get up.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by White Comet

/\ /\ /\
This. I'm happy to explain something if it's not clear to you, but spare me the attitude (and you have demonstrated enough mastery of English not to use that as an excuse, either).

LOL thanks for the time to lighting me up & I'm glad that my Engrish isn't confusing ya.

Originally Posted by White Comet

You said you wouldn't buy the Subie if all that differentiated it from the Toyo version was a bump in hp, but no drivetrain differences. I pointed out, with examples, that auto-makers have been doing this for decades, and it clearly has not impacted sales negatively. I.e., the BMW 3-series, the Mustang V6 and GT V8, the WRX to the STI, and the Ralliart to the Evo (yes, the Mitsu and Subie examples have some drivetrain changes between the models, but the layouts are still the same). The only exception in this scenario is that the two different trims would be sold across two different brands, but GM has done this for decades as well, and it still works as long as the two cars are marketed differently enough.

When did I say that I wouldn't buy the Subie if the diff was bump in HP. I said was why would I buy Toyo ver if the diff was bump in HP (No offense to Toyota fan here. Just my fav auto company ranking, Subaru is higher). As for Stang and BMW, IDK and I don't have enough knowledge to debate, so I'm sure you're right.

Originally Posted by White Comet

Wrong. There was an STI. JDM market only, but it exist(ed). Why does it matter? Because it goes against your statement that STIs were made only for WRC. The Forester STI was not rallied by Subaru in WRC. Your photos of the others are irrelevant because they are privateers, or Subaru France, and Subie of Japan most certainly did not create the Forester STI for sale in Japan only just so Subaru of France could race it.

You're right. few hrs ago my cousin (in JP) informed me that '05 Subaru did make Forester STI and '05 & JP only.

As for pics team why is it irrelevant? Look at all the teams in Group B, A & WRC or even in minor rally races, they're privateers.

You can't say Subaru didn't made Forester just for Subaru France. Hell, Subaru do what ever they can to win the championship. ie: Spoiler

WRC spoiler (like this one on the pic) was made mid of the season race. Driver was having hard time landing the jump due to the rear is lifting in the air, so STI Euro made it just for them and they made few hundred to the public. Even TRD do the same thing too. They make special parts for the race & say that it's available for public IF they can have several hundred ppl pre-order & paid before. If there isn't enough ppl pre-ordering, they're not making it. So I don't see any reason for Subaru to say no to make Forester STI for Subaru France.

Originally Posted by White Comet

You keep citing the Impreza/WRX/STI as proof of "tradition", but considering the model below the STI is also boosted and AWD, so what? That just goes to show that the STI is largely differentiated from the lower model primarly by a boost in power (yes, I know of the myriad of other differences, but the drivetrain is ultimately still the same).

STI isn't model name. It's a division of Subaru. STI tuned WRX (which is the highest model). So technically WRX & STI is same car/model or whatever you wanna call it. One has STI badge and other one don't. Same with Toyota, TRD badge or not. Why do you think STI still keep the freakin' long name: Subaru Impreza WRX STI (JDM becomes nightmare w Spec-C, Type-R and blah blah blah after STI). If it was different model why They kept WRX? Hell it's easy to say Subaru Impreza STI. Back in '94~'95 in Japan, you can actually buy WRX and tell Subaru dealer to tell STI to tune it custom WRX STI for them if price was right lol (iirc they stop that in '98~'99ish?).

Originally Posted by White Comet

I personally don't care what Subaru does to the FT, be it AWD boosted or RWD and powered by two huffing baboons. Unless it's somehow orders of magnitude better in every way compared to the Toyota, that's the one I have interest in.

So you're saying that you don't care what Subaru does. Unless it's somehow it's better in every way compared to the FT-86c?

[OldSkoolToys]

hahaha, you subaru junkies crack me up.

edit: whatever subaru does to their version, as long as Toyota stays the course, can't be better than what Toyota is doing. Keep it simple, light, RWD, responsive engine, and aggressive suspension, then Subaru could create a millenium falcon of a car for all I care. I still wouldn't buy it.


See what I did there?

[aspera]

Millenium Falcon. Err, no. The best of the best STI cars are strippers...exactly what you like. Those are the Spec C cars that we can't buy in the United States. Sure, they're AWD turbo strippers, but still strippers. No A/C, bigger brakes, no passenger visor, better heads, different cams, thinner glass, and stuff like that.

The thing that makes a 'real' STi, as opposed to a car badged as an STI, great is that it is a homologation special. EXAMPLE: To win races the race car needs bigger brakes. The factory has to build a certain number of production cars with those SAME brakes for the race car to be allowed to use them. I think Toyota has only briefly done that with Celica and Corolla rally cars.

I hope that the FT-86 is initially sold as a stripper in the first few years, but then sold as a beefed-up 'super stripper' competition model that continues to evolve with joint TRD/STI development.

Has anybody brought up TRD/STI working together yet?

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

hahaha, you subaru junkies crack me up.

edit: whatever subaru does to their version, as long as Toyota stays the course, can't be better than what Toyota is doing. Keep it simple, light, RWD, responsive engine, and aggressive suspension, then Subaru could create a millenium falcon of a car for all I care. I still wouldn't buy it.


See what I did there?

LOL I love both Toyo & Subie (just Subie lil more). I am rooting for FT-86c to be light, fr car too... but that doesn't mean I'm not rooting for Subie. About 9 yrs I have waited for new Impreza coupe. I just don't want Subie to mess it up.

FT-86c for summer & Impreza coupe for winter. That's all I'm wishing for.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by aspera

Millenium Falcon. Err, no. The best of the best STI cars are strippers...exactly what you like.

Whoosh!