New BRZ at NYIAS

[zigzagz94]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foira9M7PVM[/ame]


press conference

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by thunderfox

There are so many reasons against making one (eating WRX and FRS sales) that it doesn't make sense for Subaru to make one so that people can trade in their BRZ and have them be saddled with used BRZ non turbos.

That's some ridiculously bad logic. You HONESTLY don't think there's healthy demand for used FRS/BRZs in the $15-20k range? There's plenty of demand there, because it has no competitor there. It's the modern 240SX.

And to think that there wouldn't be sufficient demand for a turbo BRZ is just plain stupid. Let's say they built one - 300hp, 2900lbs, $32k. To find another lightweight coupe with similar power you'd have to go all the way up to a $65k Cayman S (or conceivably Alfa 4C). There's plenty of people willing to put down money for that sort of car.

I mean FFS fellas, Dodge can't build enough $60k 707 hp Challengers to meet demand!

[Decay107]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

And to think that there wouldn't be sufficient demand for a turbo BRZ is just plain stupid. Let's say they built one - 300hp, 2900lbs, $32k. To find another lightweight coupe with similar power you'd have to go all the way up to a $65k Cayman S (or conceivably Alfa 4C). There's plenty of people willing to put down money for that sort of car.

More likely $40K+

Why does everyone assume a turbo would only add a few thousand dollars? A BRZ with the specs you listed would be unquestionably faster than an STI. Even if it doesn't cost subaru as much to produce, it would still be more expensive than a similar STI because people pay for specs.

I also personally don't believe Subaru is willing to make something that can outrun it's old established halo car.

[tahdizzle]

I don't think an STi BRZ would have the kind of impact on a WRX STi like people are assuming.

STi is a low volume vehicle. A BRZ STi would be an even lower volume vehicle. People may come to buy a BRZ STi and leave with a WRX STi and vice versa.

I really don't understand the entire "Subaru wants its money to come from the WRX STi ONLY! They would never want money from a BRZ STi." argument.

[Decay107]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

I don't think an STi BRZ would have the kind of impact on a WRX STi like people are assuming.

STi is a low volume vehicle. A BRZ STi would be an even lower volume vehicle. People may come to buy a BRZ STi and leave with a WRX STi and vice versa.

I really don't understand the entire "Subaru wants its money to come from the WRX STi ONLY! They would never want money from a BRZ STi." argument.

Exactly!

But why, from a business perspective, should Subaru create another low volume money losing vehicle just to suck the collective ****s of the internet commentariat.

All the folks who say "durrr, Subaru should just stick uh wrx moter in the car". Have absolutely no idea the amount of engineering time and effort required for so "simple" a proposition. It's likely that the whole car would have to re-designed for extra power in order to keep an acceptable factor of safety for all drive-line components.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Decay107

..All the folks who say "durrr, Subaru should just stick uh wrx moter in the car". Have absolutely no idea the amount of engineering time and effort required for so "simple" a proposition. It's likely that the whole car would have to re-designed for extra power in order to keep an acceptable factor of safety for all drive-line components.

Here's the issue in my opinion.

Folks see you can take the base 86 and stuff a turbocharger or supercharger in it for a few thousand dollars, so it must be cheaper for the manufacturer to do it.

What they forget is that when the 86 comes with that supercharger delivering 300HP the buyer is still going to want a 60,000 mile powertrain warranty on it, something no one worries about in the scenario that started the speculation.

Also, the manufacturer now has to stock those parts for 10 years or so AFTER the end of the life of the model so for every 10 superchargers they put in a car, they have to plan on building an extra 1 or 2 and storing it somewhere.

Lots of things are expected from the Manufacturer that you don't expect from your aftermarket supplier or local speed shop.

[FT911]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

And to think that there wouldn't be sufficient demand for a turbo BRZ is just plain stupid. Let's say they built one - 300hp, 2900lbs, $32k. To find another lightweight coupe with similar power you'd have to go all the way up to a $65k Cayman S (or conceivably Alfa 4C). There's plenty of people willing to put down money for that sort of car.

This is my exact dilemma! I want to trade-in my BRZ (Long story). I want a 300hp NA, under 2900lbs car, so a Cayman S. I don't have $65k to drop on a Cayman S. So the BRZ is still the closest thing to what I want.

Oh well. Maybe they'll make a BRZ Sti in 2020 when I will be (hopefully) able to drop $65k on a Cayman S.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Decay107

More likely $40K+



Why does everyone assume a turbo would only add a few thousand dollars? A BRZ with the specs you listed would be unquestionably faster than an STI. Even if it doesn't cost subaru as much to produce, it would still be more expensive than a similar STI because people pay for specs.



I also personally don't believe Subaru is willing to make something that can outrun it's old established halo car.

Thinking that people wanting a BRZ STI are the same people wanting a WRX STI is a flawed perspective. Sure, a few people might be interested in both. But not most. That's like saying that Porsche shouldn't sell a Cayman S because it might steal sales from the Macan Turbo!

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Here's the issue in my opinion.

Folks see you can take the base 86 and stuff a turbocharger or supercharger in it for a few thousand dollars, so it must be cheaper for the manufacturer to do it.

What they forget is that when the 86 comes with that supercharger delivering 300HP the buyer is still going to want a 60,000 mile powertrain warranty on it, something no one worries about in the scenario that started the speculation.

Also, the manufacturer now has to stock those parts for 10 years or so AFTER the end of the life of the model so for every 10 superchargers they put in a car, they have to plan on building an extra 1 or 2 and storing it somewhere.

Lots of things are expected from the Manufacturer that you don't expect from your aftermarket supplier or local speed shop.

Nah, I'm fully aware of everything required to make a production BRZ turbo reality. The way you're looking at it makes it seem like no company has ever offered 2 different powertrains for one vehicle. Just ridiculous.



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[Decay107]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Nah, I'm fully aware of everything required to make a production BRZ turbo reality. The way you're looking at it makes it seem like no company has ever offered 2 different powertrains for one vehicle. Just ridiculous.



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I'll bet all of them had all power-trains on the product road-map from the beginning. Subaru already knows 100% whether or not it's going to make a turbo version, they always have, since the model hit the drawing boards. Nothing anybody says or does is going to change this.

If however, a turbo version has not been planned in already, it would be prohibitively expensive to "factory modify" the BRZ to function reliably with the added power considering the model's limited appeal. From just about any angle it would be a money losing proposition for Subaru.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Nah, I'm fully aware of everything required to make a production BRZ turbo reality. The way you're looking at it makes it seem like no company has ever offered 2 different powertrains for one vehicle. Just ridiculous.

Not saying that at all.

Just saying it's more than a quick exercise and that it has to be a commercially viable (read profitable) opportunity for them to do it. If Subaru and/or Toyota thought they could sell them in sufficient quantities to make the proposition beneficial to them (not the buyer), they would.

However, it is very unlikely they would be willing to create a turbo version just by adding a turbo. It would be an headlight to taillight engineering exercise to make sure the new car model/variation met the standards they have to meet and a price that will sell and will make money.

[WolfpackS2k]

Again you're overcomplicating things.


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[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Again you're overcomplicating things.


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Ummm ... it is complicated!
We have been trying to change a coating thickness on a brake rotor by 2 microns for about 4 months now and still don't have the approvals.
It is not just a matter of slapping and engine in and walking away.

[NemesisPrime909]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Nah, I'm fully aware of everything required to make a production BRZ turbo reality. The way you're looking at it makes it seem like no company has ever offered 2 different powertrains for one vehicle. Just ridiculous.

Let's go back to what Tada said about the design

“When we first presented this idea to our advertising people, they were drastically opposed to this idea. They complained that the car doesn’t have a particularly fast time on the circuit, it does not use any new technology. They also could not think of a catchy headline for the catalogue.”

They knew/planned from the get-go that this car would not be fast

“To make the car customizable, we did away with computers to the highest extent possible. A lot of the cars on the market today are controlled by computers. People have the feeling that they are driven by the car instead of them driving the car. That makes for a boring experience. That is why we decided to go back to the basics of car making. With the low center of gravity, the driver now is in personal touch with the road again.”

While there was no plan to make a turbo version, they knew the enthusiat community would modify the car, so they made it with enough space to accommodate would-be modders.

“We visited with car enthusiasts in Japan, America and Europe. The feedback we received was almost always the same. They said there are a lot of sports cars with high horsepower that are very fast, but these are not the sports cars that they want to have. They want small compact cars that are controllable, that they can tune themselves. However, that kind of sports car is not on the market. Therefore, these sports car enthusiasts are forced to continue to use older cars from a long time ago, because there is no new alterative on the market.”

You're right, when two versions of a car is designed, it's not difficult to make two versions.

but the GT86 was not one of those cars. If anything, more power will come from displacement, tuning, or improved components.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by NemesisPrime909

You're right, when two versions of a car is designed, it's not difficult to make two versions.
.

In addition to this:
When there are multiple versions of cars made with extreme differences in power level they usually fall into one of two categories:

1) High end expensive sports/luxury cars where price is not a factor. In fact these companies frequently want the car to cost way more because that actually becomes a selling point for the target demographic (the whole "well my car cost $XXXXXXXX crowd"). Talking about low numbers high priced production such as Porsche, Lambo, etc. here.

2)High performance cars based upon a platform common with a mass produced high profit econo car. They are not looking to make big money from the performance version because they sell hundreds of thousand of the econobox versions. Many people buy these econo versions based on the fact that a performance version exists even though they are well aware their car is not at that level. These are the Golf/GTI, Impreza/WRX Lancer/Evo type of vehicles.

The 86 does not fall into either one of these categories and to pigeon hole it into one would either mean a massive increase in price for both versions or start sharing the platform with something like a Prius. I don't think either of these would work so they came up with the plan that Nemesis quoted and are not likely to deviate from it.