Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[jamestown]

CSG Mike!

I've read a lot of your posts and you have probably answered this somewhere already but here goes:

I currently have a camaro 1le that is very satisfying to drive on track. Unfortunately I've been having some reliability issues with the engine that are making me not want to own the car anymore. What is the point of having a capable car if it doesn't work??

I'm considering getting an frs to do say 5 track days a year over the next 5 years. My experience level and speed is somewhere between medium and high. Mods will be kept to a minimum and no power mods at all. I value reliability going forward and would plan to get 17x9 rpf1 +35, some 255 re-71r's, carbotech xp12/xp10 or equivalent, an oil cooler/oil temp and pressure gauges and whatever decent alignment I can get on the factory suspension.

Is this a good plan? Anything I'm missing? Is this car going to hold up for my needs? It's either that or maybe it is time for me to get out of tracking entirely.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by jamestown

I value reliability going forward and would plan to get 17x9 rpf1 +35, some 255 re-71r's, carbotech xp12/xp10 or equivalent, an oil cooler/oil temp and pressure gauges and whatever decent alignment I can get on the factory suspension.

Is this a good plan? Anything I'm missing? Is this car going to hold up for my needs? It's either that or maybe it is time for me to get out of tracking entirely.

unsolicited two cents from an armchair quarterback because I'm bored
That might be too much tire for stock power on track, I'd stick to 215-225 tires and 7"-8" wheels. You'll certainly be able to slide around on the 255's and get the tires hot and working well, but they'll slow you on the straights. I never ran my 17x9's on stock suspension (mine are +45, won't clear the front springs, not positive the +35 will either, reports seem to conflict) but I suspect the grip will overwhelm the soft stock springs and you'll be hard into the bumpstops, not the worst consequence but not ideal. Upside is cheaper wheels and tires.

Evidence from a few years back with R&T testing 215 vs 235:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...ransformation/

The only alignment adjustment available from factory is toe, toss some camber bolts into the front when you get it aligned at only ~$20 and go from there, you can even use Toyota/Subaru official 'crash bolts'. Don't rule out alignment goodies later on once you get a look at how the tires wear. Don't forget brake fluid either.
Other than that you're probably good. Enjoy the gas savings to and from the track, you can toss the track wheels into the trunk to save the rubber from the street usage, and if you get a '13 consider grabbing an off the shelf tune as there was an error in the factory ecu calibration that got fixed later and copied by the aftermarket.

[DocWalt]

I'm not Mike... but I'd advise against going with super wide tires like that and stock power. I went from stock tires to 245 RE-71Rs and though my corner exit speed is ~5-10mph faster than before my end of straight speed is only 1-2mph faster.

Stock brakes simply won't hold up very well without ducting, no matter what you do with pads. I'd consider myself similar to your level of driving and I was killing XP10s on stock tires and killing XP12s with the RE-71Rs. Just starting to fade them, but I was smearing the pad on the rotors and generally wasting a lot of money.

You'll likely want camber plates and rear lower control arms, you can't get a decent track alignment out of the stock stuff. The rear camber isn't adjustable at all... If you get lowering springs, you'll likely not need the rear lower control arms, the camber falls into a decent range then and less hassle doing alignments and such.

Otherwise, the car is very enjoyable. I've had no reliability issues and I beat the crap out of my car at autocross and on the track and drive it to work the next day

[Uplink]

Originally Posted by jamestown

CSG Mike!

I've read a lot of your posts and you have probably answered this somewhere already but here goes:

I currently have a camaro 1le that is very satisfying to drive on track. Unfortunately I've been having some reliability issues with the engine that are making me not want to own the car anymore. What is the point of having a capable car if it doesn't work??

I'm considering getting an frs to do say 5 track days a year over the next 5 years. My experience level and speed is somewhere between medium and high. Mods will be kept to a minimum and no power mods at all. I value reliability going forward and would plan to get 17x9 rpf1 +35, some 255 re-71r's, carbotech xp12/xp10 or equivalent, an oil cooler/oil temp and pressure gauges and whatever decent alignment I can get on the factory suspension.

Is this a good plan? Anything I'm missing? Is this car going to hold up for my needs? It's either that or maybe it is time for me to get out of tracking entirely.

I'm 'a' Mike, does that count?


So everything Strat & Doc said with one caveat. What exactly are you looking to get out of the car? If you're just out to have fun, slap a set of 245/40-17's on 17x8 RPF1's (only 3oz heavier per corner than stock 215's), stainless lines, a good set of pads/fluid and have at it. You can still have ear to ear grins.
If you're really going to push and set out to do lots of very fast laps, yes, you're going to need to look into upgrades. You WILL kill the factory rotors in about 4k miles. I did it 3x like clockwork. You will also burn through even an endurance compound (like the PFC 08's) pad relatively quickly due to lack of adequate cooling. Look into the AP Racing Sprint Kit. The pads are roughly half the price as the ones for factory calipers, you save 20lbs of unsprung weight, get better braking and longevity.


These factors will depend greatly on the tracks you're driving too. Something like Poconos or the Glen have high speeds to bring it down from, but there's decent time between to cool. Conversely, Palmer or Thompson don't have much reprieve before you're on the binders again.


Also, what is your car background? Have you driven a momentum car on track? Coming from the 1LE, unless you go Forced Induction, don't get discouraged when (not if) people walk you on the straights. This car is all about the corners. It's an excellent platform to enhance any driver's skills because it is immediately apparent when you get something wrong or right and when you get it right, the reward is worth the price of admission!


Looks like you might be in my area. PM me if you're doing any local events. If I'm there I'll see about arranging a ride along so you can judge for yourself if it's what you're looking for. Personally, I couldn't be happier. You can't beat the /$ ratio.

[dp1]

Originally Posted by jamestown

CSG Mike!

I've read a lot of your posts and you have probably answered this somewhere already but here goes:

I currently have a camaro 1le that is very satisfying to drive on track. Unfortunately I've been having some reliability issues with the engine that are making me not want to own the car anymore. What is the point of having a capable car if it doesn't work??

I'm considering getting an frs to do say 5 track days a year over the next 5 years. My experience level and speed is somewhere between medium and high. Mods will be kept to a minimum and no power mods at all. I value reliability going forward and would plan to get 17x9 rpf1 +35, some 255 re-71r's, carbotech xp12/xp10 or equivalent, an oil cooler/oil temp and pressure gauges and whatever decent alignment I can get on the factory suspension.

Is this a good plan? Anything I'm missing? Is this car going to hold up for my needs? It's either that or maybe it is time for me to get out of tracking entirely.

Good responses to your post, also consider:
"I see experienced drivers consistently wear out stock dampers in 3-5 track days." (@CSG Mike)
There are exceptions, but...


Also, http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25485

[jamestown]

All feedback is welcome from both Mikes and not Mikes!

Originally Posted by strat61caster

but I suspect the grip will overwhelm the soft stock springs and you'll be hard into the bumpstops

I hadn't considered that the stock suspension was that soft. I drove one years ago and I remember it being firm for a street car. But perhaps I should consider some suspension mods aswell. And also the extra alignment related parts you and others have recommended.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Evidence from a few years back with R&T testing 215 vs 235

The only thing I would say about that specific article is that they use a 235 tire that is a larger diameter than stock effectively increasing the final drive ratio which would explain the slower speeds in the straights. If I were to use a 245/17/r40 at least it would be the same final drive.

Originally Posted by DocWalt

I went from stock tires to 245 RE-71Rs and though my corner exit speed is ~5-10mph faster than before my end of straight speed is only 1-2mph faster.

Doc I checked out your build thread. Nice! They qoute above actually makes your tire choice sound pretty awesome. But I get your point, perhaps there is benefit of having an overall lower diameter tire than stock even at the cost of less width.

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Stock brakes simply won't hold up very well without ducting, no matter what you do with pads. I'd consider myself similar to your level of driving and I was killing XP10s on stock tires and killing XP12s with the RE-71Rs. Just starting to fade them, but I was smearing the pad on the rotors and generally wasting a lot of money.

That is too bad. That has been my experience with both my g35 and my camaro at the track. Everything could use more brakes. I'm hesitant to get a BBK or coilovers for insurance reasons, and I'm not set up to tow a car to the track so it is a bit of a delema.

Originally Posted by Uplink

What exactly are you looking to get out of the car?

I think I mostly just want it to run and be consistent at this point. I do like pushing it but more in the sense of working on my driving as opposed to modifying the car for more speed. I would like to grab the low hanging fruit mods however.

Originally Posted by Uplink

Also, what is your car background? Have you driven a momentum car on track?

I drove a g35 before the camaro so I have some idea about what it is like to be passed by all my track buddies. I think I'm over it at this point or at least I'm telling myself that I am haha.

Originally Posted by dp1

"I see experienced drivers consistently wear out stock dampers in 3-5 track days." (@CSG Mike)

Hmm that is unexpected too. I wonder what causes that. If I don't go coilovers would koni yellows be a potential solution?




The only other question I had was have there been engine issues with slaping sticky tires on this car with regards to fuel or oil starvation?

[DocWalt]

I'd just run slightly narrower tires to keep the speed up, but use r-comps or something else similarly grippy. The rolling diameter is a factor, but the big issue with wider tires is the rolling resistance and simply air resistance.

Oil starvation isn't really a big deal without super sticky tires. Fuel starvation will happen in long left hand turns, but not a huge deal when completely stock since the fuel usage is lower than when modded. The fuel starve issue gets worse if you run an E85 tune as it's simply using more fuel out of the swirl pot.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Stock brakes simply won't hold up very well without ducting, no matter what you do with pads. I'd consider myself similar to your level of driving and I was killing XP10s on stock tires and killing XP12s with the RE-71Rs. Just starting to fade them, but I was smearing the pad on the rotors and generally wasting a lot of money.

Originally Posted by Uplink

Look into the AP Racing Sprint Kit. The pads are roughly half the price as the ones for factory calipers, you save 20lbs of unsprung weight, get better braking and longevity.

^^^
Agree with what they said about getting a BBK if you're tracking often. I recently bought one and my only regret was not buying one two years ago. Fade is no longer an issue, pads and rotors are lasting longer, and pads are 1/2 the price. Over time, you will save money if you track frequently. There are a number of thoroughly-tested BBK options out there for this car (AP racing, stoptech, brembo, RR racing, etc.) - I would definitely consider them.

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by jamestown

CSG Mike!

I've read a lot of your posts and you have probably answered this somewhere already but here goes:

I currently have a camaro 1le that is very satisfying to drive on track. Unfortunately I've been having some reliability issues with the engine that are making me not want to own the car anymore. What is the point of having a capable car if it doesn't work??

I'm considering getting an frs to do say 5 track days a year over the next 5 years. My experience level and speed is somewhere between medium and high. Mods will be kept to a minimum and no power mods at all. I value reliability going forward and would plan to get 17x9 rpf1 +35, some 255 re-71r's, carbotech xp12/xp10 or equivalent, an oil cooler/oil temp and pressure gauges and whatever decent alignment I can get on the factory suspension.

Is this a good plan? Anything I'm missing? Is this car going to hold up for my needs? It's either that or maybe it is time for me to get out of tracking entirely.

Originally Posted by jamestown

That is too bad. That has been my experience with both my g35 and my camaro at the track. Everything could use more brakes. I'm hesitant to get a BBK or coilovers for insurance reasons, and I'm not set up to tow a car to the track so it is a bit of a delema.

If you're concerned about upgrading to BBK or coilovers for insurance reasons then maybe you want to wait until the 2017 BRZ Limited with the Performance Pack comes out. It will get you 90% of the way there with big brakes and upgraded suspension right from the OEM. Just install an oil cooler and upgrade your pads and fluid and you'll be set and have done nothing to the car to make an insurance adjuster look twice.

[jamestown]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

the Performance Pack comes out

It's an option. I imagine at some point you'd be able to just buy the parts from Subaru too and bolt them on older models.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by jamestown

I drove a g35 before the camaro so I have some idea about what it is like to be passed by all my track buddies. I think I'm over it at this point or at least I'm telling myself that I am haha.

Only in the straights...

Not sure why a BBK would change insurance, but it'll sure lower consumables cost. The Sprint kit is often available used for a few bucks off...

Coilovers, I guess the same sentiment on insurance costs.

[strat61caster]

CSG says a set of pads should last 4x track days, we don't know your experience or what tracks you run and how aggressive you are, a set of xp12s could last you two seasons with you driving at your hardest, or maybe you aren't trying to set a record every lap and are content at 9.5/10 speeds and don't abuse your brakes, remember only 5x track days per year. How did the brakes fare on the Camaro? If anything the 86 should be easier on brakes, OEM vs OEM given that the 1LE doesn't have a brake upgrade to my knowledge.

The ride is firm but the oe spring rates are ~130lbs front and ~210lbs rear. The best thing to do is try it and figure it out yourself, not run out and buy what the internet tells you, nab the car, fresh pads and fluids (because odds are good you'd fry OE or any hybrid pad) and hit the track.

The whole point of you considering this was to 'keep it simple stupid', more grip means more cornering and braking force which means stiffer springs and upgraded brakes and boom, you just fell into the same hole you are trying to climb out of with the Camaro. You want the simplest most reliable track setup available: street tires in oe size, upgraded pads and fluid, oil cooler, camber bolts, alignment. There's a great thread about when a BBK breaks even with just buying oe fitment pads more frequently, it was 27 HPDES for that guy, more than you plan on attending over the next 5 years, he was ecstatic because he was tracking like 4 days per month.

On the tires I think the best way to go would be slap a set of your choice of rubber, re71r, rs3, z2, etc on the oe wheels and burn em up before taking the plunge on the 17x9. Could even save the oe rubber and slap it back on later or another set of oe 86 wheels, they typically sell for ~$400 a set or less. It doesn't hurt to try.



For the dampers I say burn up the OE, go with Bilstein or Koni replacements which should be able to take the abuse a bit better and are rebuildable, maybe at that point you might consider a lowering spring, especially if you decide to go with the 9" wheels and 245 tires, I'm not convinced the R&T article speed difference was all gearing, the sentiment that 245 slower than 225 on most tracks has been echoed elsewhere on the forum. And all the autocross guys are running 245 and not stepping up to 255 or 265 because it's simply too much tire on even a tight autocross course where top speed is almost always sacrificed for corner grip.

Keep it simple. No track car will be maintenance free, aside from a Miata or driving like a granny out there, the 86 is one of the best.

Oh by the way, oil changes take at least 5 quarts (a full fill according to the manual is 5.7 qts iirc), so using quality oil puts you near $10/quart, plus filter, odds are you're looking at a $50-$70 oil change. Don't know if you're a 'change before and after every event' kind of guy or a 'just follow the manual' kind of guy, but worth mentioning considering we're talking about the cost of consumables.

Edit: BBK cost benefit review
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94608

[Whooosah]

I just threw on my w5 pads all around and went for a test drive. Noticed some noise sounding like the pad is slightly grinding the rotor in rear and maybe front. Just wondering if this is normal for brand new pads. I know track pads are supposed to be noisy if not bedded in just wondering if this sounds normal. Its kind of like a 'shhhh' sound even when not on brakes coasting or lightly on brakes.

[jamestown]

The more I look at it I would probably buy rs3's due to tire cost and that I don't want to move to something like an NT01 due to their wet traction limits. So in practical terms the decision would be between stock rims and say a 225/45ZR17 or rpf1's and a 245/40ZR17. Lowest cost option vs dare I say the better cosmetic option??

A lot of people have brought up brake bleeding/ fluid. I am a religious bleeder. I'm coming from a car that weighs 3800lbs and would probably be dead otherwise. All praise fluid.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

CSG says a set of pads should last 4x track days, we don't know your experience or what tracks you run and how aggressive you are, a set of xp12s could last you two seasons with you driving at your hardest, or maybe you aren't trying to set a record every lap and are content at 9.5/10 speeds and don't abuse your brakes, remember only 5x track days per year. How did the brakes fare on the Camaro? If anything the 86 should be easier on brakes, OEM vs OEM given that the 1LE doesn't have a brake upgrade to my knowledge.

The pad useage I have seen on both my previous cars has been around 5-6 track days. Ofc as you know it all depends on track for instance I think I crushed pads in only a few days on the g35 when I went to Watkins Glen a few years back (all of the braking zones are downhill). My main tracks are going to be TMP kayuga, Mosport GP track, and Mosport DDT just due to proximity. TMP and the DDT are smallish technical tracks that will be hard on brakes. Mosport GP is actually pretty easy on brakes as far as tracks go, most braking zones are slightly uphill and it is high speed (lots of airflow between braking zones).

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Edit: BBK cost benefit review
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94608

I don't know how I can argue against that regardless of my hangups. Seems like I would at least break even if I do 25 days over 5 years with the added benifit of more braking confidence on track.


I can't thank people for posts yet but strat thanks for that useful post!