FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[Niche79]

I really love the Z, id buy one in a heart beat if I had a large chunk of change to put down. Maybe by the fall. I also LOVE the FT 86 concept II. Just looks sick as hell. Cant stand the scion version ewwwww watered down cheapness. Cant stand the fact its a Scion. In all honestly I hear the FRS wont even be out till next fall and id kinda like a newer car this fall, so I will most likely put down 5k and buy a lightly used Z vs wait another year and get something I dont like as much. *if it is only launched as a scion that is*. Payments will be in the 400s but thats in my budget range so im happy with that. I also see Honda is getting back in the sports car game as anounced in a magazine. Im glad to see toyota and honda is back. but both will be years before production hits the market place. So My choice for a car this fall will be the Z.

Are they in the same class, HELL NO. The Z is for guys in their 30s plus with a bit more money and cash, its a whole diff market. Just buy what YOU want, that all that should matter. Just dont go in over your head on payments, Ive been there and done that!

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by xantonin

I mean we apparently even have people shopping Corvettes on this forum, that decided to wait to see how this car comes out.

I'd love to have a Corvette if they fixed the interior so it wasn't a tub of cheap Tupperware with a Cobalt steering wheel. The character and powertrain is excellent but the place you spend most of your time is just embarrassing, IMO.

Originally Posted by Niche79

...The Z is for guys in their 30s plus with a bit more money and cash, its a whole diff market....

I agree. That said, even though I'm in the core demographics for the Z, I refuse to consider one primarily because it has a stupid V-6, the ultimate anti-Viagra. I'd rather have any other engine configuration, V-6 is the absolute bottom of the list of desirability. If the Z came back with a proper inline-6 it would be almost irresistible.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by xantonin

Just because this car isn't the same class as a 370Z, doesn't mean people won't be shopping between the two.

I mean we apparently even have people shopping Corvettes on this forum, that decided to wait to see how this car comes out.

While obviously different classes, people are really not shopping for cars within the same class.

They are shopping between the classes themselves, trying to decide which class of car they will be satisfied with.

At that point, the logic is in their head only.

and Elise, GT-R, IS-f and other ridiculously expensive cars. That tells you how sexy looking FR-S is~

Kinda wish, they newbs understand why this car don't have over 300hp, someguys just don't understand...

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Kinda wish, they newbs understand why this car don't have over 300hp, someguys just don't understand...

The FR-S will be a momentum car...and that's a good thing!

[Leeky]

Very unlikely to have double wishbone suspension.

Looking back at previous Toyota sports cars we only ever received Double Wishbone on the Supra's and Soarers (AFAIK). But thats only because they shared the engines and some of the underpinnings of the Lexus cars like the LS400/GS300.

Almost certainly going to be McPherson but thats fine by me. I've had a number of MK4 Supra's and cant really 'feel' a benefit from their Double Wishbone design.

The other thing is that this car is of a similar size and price range to the Gen7 celica. I'm not saying its a straight replacement for the celica, but i'd say Toyota are going to be aiming this car at the same market segment from where which the celica once sat.

With this in mind a 300bhp 370z contender is just not going to happen.

If we do get a Turbo model or an Official Tuning kit to turbo the N/A then i would be surprised to see any more than about 260bhp (Within the Toyota Warrenty).

[enc0re]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

momentum car

That's a great term. Yours?

As to the McPhersons up front: my present car uses that arrangement and handles quite well. I don't think it'll hold the FR-S back. Saves some production cost too.

[bofa]

If the size/weight/hp speculation is true, I plan to get rid of my 350Z and pick up the FR-S (or subie, depending on options).

Don't get me wrong, I love the Z - this is my second one. But it's a bit of a cow and I'd rather take the price different between a new 370Z and a FR-S and put it towards other projects.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by Leeky

The other thing is that this car is of a similar size and price range to the Gen7 celica. I'm not saying its a straight replacement for the celica, but i'd say Toyota are going to be aiming this car at the same market segment from where which the celica once sat.

I'd hope not. The 7th gen Celica was a failure. The car itself was great, but Toyota's marketing and competitive pricing was horrible. ("Looks fast" Really? That's a great marketing strategy there). This equates to the car's market either being a small one or the wrong one. Unless you mean the older Celica market.

Celica sales hit 52,406 units in 2000, but dropped sharply to 14,856 in 2003. Just 8,710 Celicas were sold in 2004, and only 3,113 were sold in 2005.

We don't want that market... Unless you meant that market in addition to the new market the FT-86 will appeal to.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by enc0re

That's a great term. Yours?

No, it's a hugely common phrase with any 10/10ths sports car [i.e. not overpowered]. Miata, Elise, Boxster/Cayman, MINI, and E30 BMW all require excellent momentum-conserving driving skills around the track. They're not point-n-shoot cars like a Viper, Corvette, 911 Turbo, etc.

[Leeky]

Originally Posted by xantonin

I'd hope not. The 7th gen Celica was a failure. The car itself was great, but Toyota's marketing and competitive pricing was horrible. ("Looks fast" Really? That's a great marketing strategy there). This equates to the car's market either being a small one or the wrong one. Unless you mean the older Celica market.






We don't want that market... Unless you meant that market in addition to the new market the FT-86 will appeal to.

Celica sales hit 52,406 units in 2000, but dropped sharply to 14,856 in 2003. Just 8,710 Celicas were sold in 2004, and only 3,113 were sold in 2005.

The figures you quoted say it dropped sharply from year 2000 to 2003, but what about the sales for 2001 and 2002? Im sure the drop is more progressive if you fill in the gaps.

Over here in the UK Gen7 Celica's are everywhere. Its a very common car and sold very well.

I know that in the whole production life of the MK4 Supra no more than 47000 JDM cars were produced, 11239 Cars for the US Market, 623 were sold to the UK... So going by those figures the Gen7 Celica sold more in its 7 years on sale than the MK4 Supra managed in 10 years.

The Market for the Gen7 is the same market that the Gen6 was in and every previous celica before that. With the exception of the Gen7, the Celica's always came with the option of a 2.0 litre engine and were RWD for its first 3 generations after all which makes the FT86 follow suite nicely.

Of course this car is a spiritual homage to the AE86 which sat below the Celica in the model range. But given the dimension of the FT86 its closer to the size of the Celica if im not mistaken. So it should be well placed to appeal to a broad range of different buyers.

Yes the Gen7 was the Celica that killed off the Celica (Only a torqueless 1.8 and no Turbo model) and yes the advertising was rubbish but i guess its all that Toyota gave them to work with and the marketing department did their best to sell it. Im sure a lot of buyers asked the sales guys at the dealership "When is the GT4 version coming?". Im sure a lot of people were holding out for something that never came, which must have been a huge impact on sales.

When you think about what it was up against at the time it really didn't stand a chance - Integra Type R (DC2), Nissan 200SX (S15) & Mazda RX8. If you were after performance you'd have been mad to choose the 2ZZ-GE powered Celica over those alternatives. Toyota's reliability is what probably shifted the most Celica's, but the 1ZZ-FE ironically is a terrible engine that destroys itself over time.

But i think its safe to say that the FT86 will sell itself on looks and hype alone. As long as we get at least 200bhp and a perfectly balanced chassis I don't think any advertising department in the world could mess up trying to sell these cars.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Leeky

But i think its safe to say that the car will sell itself on looks alone. As long as we get at least 200bhp and a perfectly balanced chassis I don;t think any advertising department could mess up trying to sell these cars.

Isn't that the mistake Toyota made with Gen7 Celica? Make it look great/fast but put an underwhelming engine in it. Most people saw past that and is a reason it didn't sell well. You will have buyers that want the hp/tq numbers. You will have buyers that only want the looks. Then you have those of us that would like a mix of both. I'm not sure Toyota/Scion can base this completely off of looks only. Remember the FR-S Mk3 model shown is just a prototype so the production version is bound to look different. I hope Toyota takes care of the exterior/interior as well as the engine (as it seems they are doing).

[Leeky]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Isn't that the mistake Toyota made with Gen7 Celica?

Indeed it is, but the formula should be different.

This time the car should have the power, reasonable torque, handling, looks and drive from the correct wheels.

And Toyota are coming back to a Sports car after roughly 6 years of absence from that market. So i don't think they will keep quiet about it. Im sure the FT86 will get heavy advertising.

Toyota's website has FT86 images and information galore and its not even in production trim yet! Mark my words, Toyota will make sure the whole world know that this car has arrived. But if I'm wrong and they don't they are absolutely insaine!

[Exage]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Isn't that the mistake Toyota made with Gen7 Celica? Make it look great/fast but put an underwhelming engine in it.

That's funny because my 2ZZ-GE Corolla can keep pace with a K20Z3 Civic Si, I wouldn't call it an underwhelming engine.

[Leeky]

Originally Posted by Exage

That's funny because my 2ZZ-GE Corolla can pace with a K20Z3 Civic Si, I wouldn't call it an underwhelming engine.

Sorry what is a K20Z3? We get the Civic Type R in England with 200bhp. Is this the same car?

There was a limited edition Corolla sold over here with a TTE Supercharger fitted from the Factory with 213bhp.... and that still cant beat a Civic Type R on the track which is a shame as I love to see Toyota models beating their equivalent Honda.